Choosing a course for fall 2012: IUP, ICLP, Beida or BLCU

[xDragonx]

Hi,

I'm planning on studying Chinese in either China or Taiwan for a year starting from September 2012. Having looked through various sites on the net, the forums on here and through discussions with both chinese and non-chinese friends I have narrowed down my course choices to the following five programs:

1) ICLP at National Taiwan University

2) IUP at Beijing Tsinghua University

3) Chinese Language Program for International Students at Beijing Tsinghua University

4) A one-year language course at Peking University

5) A one-year language course at Beijing Language and Culture University

A little about me:

- My Chinese is entirely self-taught and only at the level of an advanced beginner - my formal college education had no electives in Mandarin.

- I am looking to maximise what I can learn in my year of study so the more intensive the course, the better.

- I will be 30 years old when the course starts and so ideally would prefer an environment that has a mix of age groups.

- Course cost is not an issue for me.

- My end-goal is to hopefully move to China and work for a company in Beijing/Shanghai.

Based on this, I was wondering if anyone would be able to provide some advice/recommendations on which of the courses would suit me best?

Specifically, I have the following questions:

1) As I have no college Mandarin or formal certificate to show two years of Mandarin study, is the IUP at Tsinghua an immediate no-go?

2) Is the Chinese Language Program at Tsinghua similar to the IUP there? What are the main differences?

3) Does anyone have any experience of the program at Peking University as their website mentions a "flyer" that contains details but there is no link to it.

4) ICLP mentions that a big benefit is that they teach Classical Chinese characters. Do any of the other courses do this? I know that going from classical -> simplified is far easier than simplified -> classical and was wondering if learning classical characters from day one is a big advantage?

5) I've heard that Taipei is much more multicultural than Beijing and the majority of residents prefer to speak English with native English speakers whereas in Beijing there will be more opportunity to speak Mandarin with locals.

Thanks a lot for your help!

[paike]

I think you missed the deadline for many of those schools, just a heads up. IUP's deadline was Decemeber I believe. I looked into it.

[jkhsu]

Another option for you is to look into private programs in Beijing and Shanghai. Since cost is not an issue for you, these programs provide you with the most flexibility. You're not looking to transfer credits or get an MA/PHD in Chinese language right?

Here are two that I've heard of. Ask around, I am sure there are a few others.

http://www.thatsmandarin.com/intensive-chinese-programs/

http://www.mandarinhouse.cn/

[xDragonx]

Thanks for your replies guys.

paike, I was under the impression that deadlines for September 2012 entry were around the end of March 2012? Here's the link for ICLP (http://iclp.ntu.edu.tw/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=7&Itemid=7〈=en). The Chinese Language Program at Tsinghua is similar. Do you have a link to the IUP at Tsinghua as I can't seem to find any information about it on their website? I emailed them a couple of times but nobody replied.

jkhsu, my preference was to ideally join one of the bigger courses but if that's no longer possible I will definitely look into your recommendations. Thanks a lot for including the links.

[icebear]

I think you missed the deadline for many of those schools, just a heads up. IUP's deadline was Decemeber I believe. I looked into it.

Perhaps true for IUP, but not in general for non-degree language programs in Beijing, which generally don't even open applications until March.

• Tsinghua Language Program: March 15-June 15 application period
  
• Beida Short Term Programs: Rolling acceptances with applications received starting in early April
  
• Renmin Short Term Programs (Chinese): typically during late April and early May
  

I can't speak for others as these are my primary targets.

[icebear]

Also, don't bother sending any emails until late February or early March - most will be on Spring Festival Holidays until the 17th, and after that probably overloaded with catching up/clearing old emails.

[xDragonx]

Ah I see. Thanks a lot for that information icebear, that's really helpful.

If you don't mind me asking, what made you decide which programs you would be targeting?

[icebear]

I don't think there are any appreciable differences in quality (assuming you exert equal effort at any), but in 5-10+ years when that part of your CV is shortened to just "Tsinghua University 2012-2014" it will look nicer than the alternatives. Think, for example, of a foreigner working in business in the US who had studied English at an Ivy League school long ago and how that might be positioned within his CV or short bio on a company website.

[xDragonx]

Very true. Most of my Chinese friends have recommended that I go to either Peking or Tsinghua for that very reason.

[OneEye]

Yes, you are probably automatically disqualified for admission to IUP. Not to mention, the deadline is past for any semester in the coming academic year. That's a little ridiculous IMO, but what can you do?

ICLP teaches traditional characters. This is a benefit if you need to use traditional characters in your work, or if you plan on being an academic. Even still, the benefit of starting from day one is probably not all that big, as it's fairly easy to learn one once you're comfortable with the other. It may be slightly easier to start with traditional, but that is far from being a reason to choose one over the other.

As far as Taipei being more multicultural than Beijing, I couldn't say because I haven't lived in Beijing. I will say I get stared at less here than I did in Shanghai, though I still get stared at my fair share. In some parts of town (like near NTNU, where I go) there are tons of foreigners, but in other parts you could walk around for a few days without bumping into a single foreigner.

As far as locals wanting to speak English, I've heard that too. I just don't believe it one bit. Sure, lots of people want to try out a "hello" (or even a merci beaucoup once), but most locals very much prefer to speak Chinese. They will try English on you if they don't think you understand what they're saying, but most of them are pretty embarrassed to speak English. At some of the more foreigner-oriented restaurants, the staff have excellent English, but will usually switch to Chinese immediately if you speak Chinese to them, and usually quite happily. At the places specifically intended for foreigners (certain pubs, etc.) they'll only speak English to you, but I rarely go to these places anyway.

My point is, don't always believe what you read as far as this goes. I've found that most people who complain about this have terrible Chinese, be it bad grammar, pronunciation, tones, whatever. If your Chinese is decent, they're more than willing to speak Chinese with you. Sometimes too willing, even. I've found that a lot of people will just asume you're fully fluent after you say a few words, and just go full speed ahead. A lot of people will just come up and start talking to you in Chinese without finding out first whether you speak it or not. Anyway, I've found most Taiwanese will help you save face by switching to English (even if they lose face by displaying their poor English) rather than struggling to understand what you may not be even getting close to saying. So if you run into this problem, take it as a sign that your Chinese needs work, not that these locals are just so eager to show off their English. They're not.

Another thing to think about is that very intensive programs like IUP and ICLP, while fantastic programs, aren't always the best option. You will learn a very formal colloquial style of conversation, but you won't have much time to get out and learn the Chinese used on the streets. ICLP, for example, assigns between 4 and 8 hours of homework per day (as in, they give you 8 hours per day, but most people don't do the full 8 hours every day). Add that to 4 hours of class, and your day is gone. Besides that, I know an ICLP teacher who says the ICLP program moves too quickly for nearly everyone that studies there. Since they move on to each new chapter so quickly and study 3-4 textbooks at a time, bad habits sometimes don't get addressed very well (I'm sure the teachers address them, but then it's up to the students to put in the time to actually fix them), and tend to get cemented. She said she has students who can read and discuss Zhuangzi but still frequently mess up basic grammar patterns. So yes, they reach a high level, but they're still making beginner mistakes.

I recommend considering a more normal program, where you can study extra on the side if you want, but you also have time to go out, be social, and enjoy your time in country. I'm doing this at MTC, and it's going very well. In fact, due to my additional study, I'm probably going to be able to skip nearly a whole book (a semester worth of work), but I'm also able to have a great social life, get outdoors on the weekends, and have a great time. I also get exposed to Chinese other than that which is written in my textbooks and recorded on my CDs, so that in class I'm able to point out, "but nobody says it like that, they say it like this, right?" I've written a good bit about my experience studying at MTC and doing extra work on the side on my blog, take a look if you're interested. I did a post a while back about trying to approximate the ICLP experience while studying at MTC, which of course can be adapted to wherever you study and your particular situation. Of course, if you're the type that needs a really intensive classroom environment in order to push yourself, you may want to forget what I just said.

Hope this helps!

[xDragonx]

OneEye, thank you so much for taking the time to provide such a detailed reply. Your comments about life in Taipei, in particular, alleviate a lot of fears I had about choosing to study in Taiwan rather than in China. Did you ever consider studying in Beijing at any point yourself or was Taipei always your first choice?

You also make very good points about the value of out-of-classroom experiences and of allowing time for material to sink in before moving onto the next topic. I would definitely feel that I had wasted my year there if I had no time to go out and experience the Chinese culture and interact with the people. I wonder if on this "Beijing" forum there is anyone that has experienced studying at ICLP at a beginner level first-hand? I see from your blog that you're planning to apply this fall but I guess now that you've had the MTC experience, you have a much wider knowledge base from which to tackle the more advanced ICLP content?

AIso I haven't managed to get any responses yet from people that have studied at Beida or Qinghua but it would be interesting to know what they thought of their programs and whether they are closer in terms of content and workload to MTC or to the ICLP.

Thanks again!

[jkhsu]

I will be 30 years old when the course starts and so ideally would prefer an environment that has a mix of age groups.

My end-goal is to hopefully move to China and work for a company in Beijing/Shanghai.

These statements sort of stood out for me because (1) you're not 18 and just starting college and (2) your main goal is to find work and live in China. I don't have thoughts on the schools you mentioned because I didn't attend them but I thought I'd offer some relevant advice/opinions on your goals. First of all, have you spent much time in Beijing, Shanghai or Taiwan?

Here are some things you should do now:

1. Plan a trip (maybe a month at least) to Beijing, Shanghai and Taipei. Make sure you visit the schools when you are out there.

2. If your college has International alumni clubs, connect with members and meet them while you are there. Both my undergrad and grad schools had alumni clubs in all those major cities.

3. Contact recruiter sites such as Wang and Li Associates and the American Chamber of Commerce in China to find out more info on jobs and pay.

I mention all this because I too had looked for jobs in China several years ago. The following were the takeaways that I got from that experience:

1. The types of jobs that were attractive to me were the ones that came with expat packages and expat pay. The people who got those positions were typically recruited from outside of China. In other words, it was easier to look for those types of jobs outside of China than in China. I know this sounds totally opposite to what you might believe but it's true. The job listings in China were mostly for local workers and for local pay.

2. The couple of job offers that I got were anywhere from 5-10 times lower in pay than what I could have gotten in the USA.

3. The people who had the types of jobs that I was looking for did not have to know much Chinese.

4. Shanghai (where I was looking for jobs) is an expensive place to live. After doing the math, I realized that I needed USA pay for me to enjoy my life there.

Again, your career / life goals might be totally different than mine and that's perfectly fine. Just make sure that you go there and do your own research. From my own experience, If you are expecting a company to hire / pay you "for your Chinese language abilities", you are probably at a minimum 2-5 years of "daily hard studying" away. In other words, you'd have to be near-native level for most companies to pay you because of your Chinese language skills. Most likely, companies will want you for your other "non-Chinese language" abliities. For example, can you help them deal with Western clients or sell products to Western countries? Can you be the Western face for their company? Do you know about Western law or business practices that are important to them? etc. etc.

So why am I mentioning this on your thread asking for school recs? The point is, don't just jump into an all out language program without figuring out if that's the best way to achieve your end goals. The expats that I met got their positions while in the USA and started taking Chinese classes (in the evening) when they got there. They got compensation for living expenses in nice neighborhoods, ayis for their kids and drivers to take them around. While all of this may not seem important to you now (assuming that you don't have a family of your own yet), they will if your plan is to live and work in China in the long term.

Good luck.

[yialanliu]

Just a couple of tips.

I studied at PKU this fall although I was enrolled in the Business Program and only took 1 class for language, the rest were business classes. PKU is a great school to learn if you are interested in learning. This means teacher don't force you to learn and don't care if you don't try. However, if you do try, they do their best to help you learn. This means discipline on your end. For the people who are determined to excel, this is the place for you in my opinion. If you need motivation from others, try BLCU.

I did a course at BLCU only 5 weeks, but found that it wasn't as good. While it was pure language intensive, I ended up moving up 2 levels due to easiness of the course even though everyone was "tested in"(the test was a joke). To get the most out of BLCU was for me to become to "worst" student in terms of ability and by the end of the 5 weeks, work my way to average. If you goto BLCU without the drive to succeed, it would be a waste of time in terms of what you could actually learn at PKU from my experience. At the same time, if you are lazy, you cold goto BLCU, have it easy, and still learn some, but not as much as you could.

Next, in terms of jobs, EVERYTHING entry - intermediate level is local pay now.

Unless you are capable of managing 50+ people(for white collar positions), your pay really stinks. My dad works at Dell and is a liason at Foxconn. As a Principal engineer with no direct reports, he makes the same amount as a person who manages 3 buildings (7000 employees).

Living in Shanghai and Bejing is expensive as well as cheap. I am Chinese, so I don't mind living in a Chinese style apartment which means dirty and in a not so good location. I can eat 6RMB meals in the firstiest street alley, my haircuts cost 5 RMB, I bargain for everything and get the local price which considerably lower the expenses compared to my colleagues when I lived in Beijing. In addition to this, I am not confined to super expensive cities like Shanghai and Beijing. For instance, my house that my family owns in Shanghai is 500 square feet and costs 300,000 USD even though it is 20+ years old. The current house that my family is looking to buy at Beilun, Ningbo is 1500 square feet, 250,000 USD, brand new nd in the nicest area of Beilun. Even that is pretty expensive compared to parts of the US but it is much cheaper than Shanghai. The same house in shanghai would cost well over 1 million USD.

Next, from what I could tell, the difference between new HSK level 3 to level 5 in language ability doesn't matter for jobs. Either you are level 6 or a novice. The intermediate doesn't affect your pay in terms of giving you a tangible benefits. Only very good Chinese with awesome english would the pay reflect a noticeable bump and people give you respect beyond being just another foreigner but now a foreigner who can do more than look white (I am completely serious when I say this). So I definitely recommend to get to HSK 6 with every effort you can if you are coming to China without other meaningful work skills(Director level+ position in any field).

The amount of foreigners in China has made it not that attractive in terms of now versus pre 2001(WTO entry). With that said, you have to be willing to take risks. Be willing to go off the beaten path such as work in Xinjiang oil or some remote areas and way out of most people's comfort zone. If you have that drive, you will succeed.

[OneEye]

Did you ever consider studying in Beijing at any point yourself or was Taipei always your first choice?

Yes, actually the biggest reason I chose Taipei over Beijing, Nanjing, or Harbin (the three main places I was looking) was that I got a scholarship for studying in Taiwan and didn't get one for the mainland. I like Taiwan a lot, but I am actually also thinking of moving to the mainland this fall just to have the experience of living in both places. I've applied for a scholarship for ICLP and I'll be applying for the CSC scholarship on the mainland again this year, and if I get one and not the other that will probably determine my choice again.

I see from your blog that you're planning to apply this fall but I guess now that you've had the MTC experience, you have a much wider knowledge base from which to tackle the more advanced ICLP content?

If I'm able to go to ICLP this fall, I'll almost certainly go in at either their Level 5 or Level 6. There's a big difference between that and going in at Level 1 or 2. The core Level 5 book, Thought and Society, is fairly advanced. You're expected to be able to discuss the influence of Confucianism on modern Chinese society, for instance. There are an average of something like 145 new vocab words per chapter (week), and that's on top of the other 2-3 books you're studying. The core book for Level 6 is apparently similar, but more in depth, and at this stage you're reading fairly serious serious literature, newspapers, and pretty advanced Literary Chinese. At a level similar to their Level 2, I had a hard time getting around without using a dictionary all the time, I was constantly frustrated with my ability in Chinese, could hardly read any signs, came home everyday exhausted from the mental strain of trying to get around in Chinese without relying on English very much, etc. Big difference. I'm somewhere in the middle of Level 4 now, and I have no problems living in Taiwan, making conversation with locals, reading very simple newspaper articles, etc. I'm rarely frustrated with myself, just very aware of how far I have left to go.

[xDragonx]

jkhsu, yialanliu, thank you both very much for your insightful posts - they have definitely got me thinking.

I guess at this stage I should probably provide a bit more information about my background and motivation:

I graduated from college quite a few years ago with a degree in Natural Sciences and have spent most of the time since then working for one of America's largest Investment Banks. I have never been to Taiwan but have had the experience of travelling around China as a tourist. I fell in love with the culture and the people when I was over there and have been hooked ever since. Over the last few years I have received a number of job offers to work at Investment Banks in Hong Kong (Beijing and Shanghai positions always require native-level Chinese proficiency) but friends that have moved over there have told me that the culture feels more Western than Chinese - something I have experienced first-hand during my stays there. Possessed by a desire to change industry altogether, I have decided to just bite the bullet this year and go spend some time in China learning the language and discovering whether or not it is the right place for me. In terms of what career I would like to persue long-term there, if I'm honest, beyond teaching English, I haven't really thought about it. As many of you are younger than me this might sound a bit strange, but breaking free from the mundanity of a life you've become so accustomed to is sometimes only possible if you switch off the practical part of your brain and think only one step ahead. jkhsu and yialanliu, this is not to say that you are in any way incorrect in your observations - I might soon find out that the options available to me are very limited and don't provide a lifestyle I am comfortable with. However, although it may sound a bit foolish, I was hoping to cross that bridge when I got to it. I will definitely look at the links you've provided though.

Getting back to courses:

- yialanliu, do you happen to have a link to the PKU syllabus? I can't seem to find anything on their website.

- OneEye, I completely understand that the experience of a more advanced ICLP student would be very different to that of someone that is studying Level 1; I was actually trying to make that point myself. Apologies if that didn't come across clearly.

[OneEye]

The point I actually meant to make but never got around to (I tend to be too wordy and forget what I was trying to say sometimes) is that I'm not sure if it's worth going to ICLP for the first few levels. They use the same textbooks for the first two levels as any other program in Taiwan, it's just that they use two at a time instead of just one. You can get much the same effect (and spend less time per day on it) by going someplace like MTC or another school, and studying one book in class and one on the side.

[gato]

I guess at this stage I should probably provide a bit more information about my background and motivation:

I graduated from college quite a few years ago with a degree in Natural Sciences and have spent most of the time since then working for one of America's largest Investment Banks. I have never been to Taiwan but have had the experience of travelling around China as a tourist. I fell in love with the culture and the people when I was over there and have been hooked ever since. Over the last few years I have received a number of job offers to work at Investment Banks in Hong Kong (Beijing and Shanghai positions always require native-level Chinese proficiency) but friends that have moved over there have told me that the culture feels more Western than Chinese - something I have experienced first-hand during my stays there. Possessed by a desire to change industry altogether, I have decided to just bite the bullet this year and go spend some time in China learning the language and discovering whether or not it is the right place for me. In terms of what career I would like to persue long-term there, if I'm honest, beyond teaching English, I haven't really thought about it.

You can't really know the culture if you don't know the language and have only been to China as a tourist, so I imagine that you are over-romanticizing things. After a year or two here, you may still love it here, but will likely be much more realistic.

If you are serious about moving to China, I would seriously recommend that you give one of those HK investment bank offers a try. It'll give you plenty of chance to go to the mainland and will be a much safer bridge to wherever you want to go eventually. Ditching everything and become a full-time student again or teaching English is simply too risky at this point in your life (I've been there). Investment banking has seen a sharp downturn in the last few months (blame the Merkozky), you might need to work harder to find a job here.

p.s. HK probably feels Western to a lot of expat bankers because they don't get out of Central much. A lot of Chinese people actually think that HK has retained more of traditional Chinese culture than mainland has -- and Taiwan even a bit more. A drawback to living in HK is that the cost of living is so high that it's stressful and making more money is a top priority for too many people. But that's true for many places in the mainland, too.

[icebear]

As many of you are younger than me this might sound a bit strange, but breaking free from the mundanity of a life you've become so accustomed to is sometimes only possible if you switch off the practical part of your brain and think only one step ahead.

I wanted to second this, and remind that it (the incomprehensibility) is present in those that are significantly older as well (with family, unable to throw caution to the wind). I worked for a few years between my undergrad and graduate program, and although I've enjoyed the graduate work (!) I'm not interested in pursuing a PhD or the big-finance placement afterwards like the majority of the class. Moving back to China is a big risk, but when you're relatively young (I'm 28) these risks are much easier to swallow than when you are older and with family. Staying on with a job you dislike in a setting that doesn't spark you also is a risky thing to do with your life.

I also thought it was worth adding some balance regarding wages for locally hired expats in Beijing. During my couple years there I networked with a lot of foreigners in exactly that position (arrived, learned Chinese, found a job). In general monthly post tax wages seemed to be 10k for those just starting (early twenties) and from 20k-40k per month for those around their late twenties. I'm not saying this sample is representative of all that come to Beijing to find work, but just that those that are willing to work hard and are lucky do find good opportunities in Beijing as local hires; just like in the US, these days. Differences in wages have more to do with individual backgrounds/sectors than Chinese level, AFAIK; most jobs foreigners work will have them working in English, although Chinese level is used to filter first round applicants who all have generally strong CVs.

[jkhsu]

As many of you are younger than me this might sound a bit strange, but breaking free from the mundanity of a life you've become so accustomed to is sometimes only possible if you switch off the practical part of your brain and think only one step ahead.

Great quote. Trust me, I know exactly what you are talking about. Now that you've told us about your situation, I'd say, take a year off and go with your plan of attending a language school. However, I would highly suggest that you look for a school in Beijing or Shanghai because that's where you wanted to end up right? Don't get me wrong, Taiwan is also a great place (if not better in some ways) to learn Chinese, but it's not China and neither is Hong Kong (I am talking about the feel over there, not necessarily about traditional Chinese culture, etc.). You should experience being in mainland China firsthand by living there. Take tourist trips to HK, TW while you are there.

Now after your year, if you don't find something suitable in China, take Gato's advice and go for a job in Hong Kong. At least that will give you some sustainable income while you figure out your long term plans.

Differences in wages have more to do with individual backgrounds/sectors than Chinese level, AFAIK; most jobs foreigners work will have them working in English...

I completely agree with icebear on this. You need to know enough Chinese to get around but you're not going to be paid because of your Chinese level. It's your Western background, industry skills and experience that they want. If they wanted Chinese language skills, they can easily look for natives, many of whom have passable English skills (for being in China that is). And don't forget the number of Chinese who go for college outside of China and come back to work.

[yialanliu]

I actually didn't take the course you will be taking. I was an exchange student at PKU Guanghua School of Management and un fortunately, I don't have the syllabus anymore.

Coming from Investment Banking, there are many opportunities in China and you'll be more prepared than most people. From my experience interning at State Street, the people in Hong Kong and Hangzhou all had great english and indeed, their chinese were not very good. The key thing was that they were motivated to succeed and were willing to work hard. Seeing as you've worked at an investment bank, I am sure you know about that part so I think you'll do fine. The difference though is I just wanted to let you know that China does have its flaws and was just trying to let you become aware of this. Like I said, if you are the type of person who is willing to work hard and persevere, there is many opportunities here. It's actually the reason why I came back to China because I felt there were more opportunities here than in the States.

Differences in wages have more to do with individual backgrounds/sectors than Chinese level, AFAIK; most jobs foreigners work will have them working in English...

That's what I was talking about in terms of level 6 or nothing. Having level 6 means you get tasked to do more than a typical foreigner and in my opinion these people get to be more a part of the organization and are more likely to succeed