Choosing a course for fall 2012: IUP, ICLP, Beida or BLCU

[icebear]

I completely agree with icebear on this. You need to know enough Chinese to get around but you're not going to be paid because of your Chinese level. It's your Western background, industry skills and experience that they want. If they wanted Chinese language skills, they can easily look for natives, many of whom have passable English skills (for being in China that is). And don't forget the number of Chinese who go for college outside of China and come back to work.

These are a few reasons why investing in your Chinese might be a good idea from a career point of view, and few of them have to do with fulfilling your specific job duties. The most obvious is that it can edge you ahead of another candidate during the selection process. Some offices work entirely in English but still place a lot of value on Chinese abilities because every foreigner there already is proficient/capable, and adding someone that isn't might weaken their "China credibility" (e.g. elitism among "old China hands"). Another concern might be that someone without reasonable Chinese is more likely to need babysitting by a secretary in making arrangements that are not work related.

Far more important for me is that if I'm intent on living in China for a significant portion of my career, I'd like to have a better understanding of the language than "enough to get around". My motivation is partly from the career considerations above, but more so from reducing the number of social situations in which average Chinese will limit my participation.

[xDragonx]

HK probably feels Western to a lot of expat bankers because they don't get out of Central much. A lot of Chinese people actually think that HK has retained more of traditional Chinese culture than mainland has -- and Taiwan even a bit more.

That's a fair point - I'm sure you know Hong Kong better than me or any expat banker. All I meant to say was that I definitely felt the western influence in places like Hong Kong and Shanghai whereas I felt it less in the other major Chinese cities I visited. The history of these cities might go some way to explaining that.

You can't really know the culture if you don't know the language and have only been to China as a tourist, so I imagine that you are over-romanticizing things. After a year or two here, you may still love it here, but will likely be much more realistic.

If you are serious about moving to China, I would seriously recommend that you give one of those HK investment bank offers a try. It'll give you plenty of chance to go to the mainland and will be a much safer bridge to wherever you want to go eventually. Ditching everything and become a full-time student again or teaching English is simply too risky at this point in your life (I've been there). Investment banking has seen a sharp downturn in the last few months (blame the Merkozky), you might need to work harder to find a job here.

As you say yourself, expat bankers working in Hong Kong tend to have precious little time to visit places outside of Central and therefore trips to the mainland are unlikely to happen very often. Besides, I don't really have a desire to go back into finance as I've done nothing but work 12+ hours a day for most of my 20s and it's about time I did something else. I do completely accept that leaving my job to travel half-way around the world to learn a different language is a big change but I don't think it's any more risky than leaving to travel the world or to go and build houses for the needy in South America or Africa. And in my experience, hardly anyone that has done these things ever says they regretted it, regardless of their age. Also, as icebear so eloquently put it: "when you're relatively young these risks are much easier to swallow than when you are older and with family. Staying on with a job you dislike in a setting that doesn't spark you also is a risky thing to do with your life." Surely if i'm ever going to do something like this, it should be now while I still have no financial and family commitments?

I also thought it was worth adding some balance regarding wages for locally hired expats in Beijing. During my couple years there I networked with a lot of foreigners in exactly that position (arrived, learned Chinese, found a job). In general monthly post tax wages seemed to be 10k for those just starting (early twenties) and from 20k-40k per month for those around their late twenties. I'm not saying this sample is representative of all that come to Beijing to find work, but just that those that are willing to work hard and are lucky do find good opportunities in Beijing as local hires; just like in the US, these days. Differences in wages have more to do with individual backgrounds/sectors than Chinese level, AFAIK; most jobs foreigners work will have them working in English, although Chinese level is used to filter first round applicants who all have generally strong CVs.

Thanks for this information icebear, it's very helpful.

I would highly suggest that you look for a school in Beijing or Shanghai because that's where you wanted to end up right? Don't get me wrong, Taiwan is also a great place (if not better in some ways) to learn Chinese, but it's not China and neither is Hong Kong (I am talking about the feel over there, not necessarily about traditional Chinese culture, etc.). You should experience being in mainland China firsthand by living there. Take tourist trips to HK, TW while you are there.

From what OneEye has said about ICLP, it sounds like that course is designed for people who know exactly what they want to do with their Chinese and are willing to sacrifice social interaction in the short term to achieve it. I guess I don't fall into that category and so maybe a course that allows me to enjoy my year as well as learn Chinese is the best thing for me. As I did ultimately plan on living in China and not Taiwan (and have no scholarship worries) I am leaning towards the programs at either Peking Univeristy or Tsinghua at the moment. A Taiwanese friend of mine that works in Taipei actually just sent me over the contact details of someone currently taking the ICLP so I'll put my assumptions to the test and will let you know what I find.

I completely agree with icebear on this. You need to know enough Chinese to get around but you're not going to be paid because of your Chinese level. It's your Western background, industry skills and experience that they want. If they wanted Chinese language skills, they can easily look for natives, many of whom have passable English skills (for being in China that is). And don't forget the number of Chinese who go for college outside of China and come back to work.

From personal experience, I can definitely attest to the increasing number of western-educated, english-speaking Mainland Chinese. The vast majority of those I have worked and socialised with over the last few years have come over to study for either undergraduate degrees or MBAs at some of the finest educational institutions the West has to offer. Once they have finished studying, the vast majority have managed to secure roles in our top organisations. However, as yialanliu says, with the recent economic downturn, many of them are now returning to China to put their dual-language skills and western business knowledge to good use. For example, in the Chinese arm of the bank I work for (Gao Hua Securities) there has been a significant increase in the number of eminently qualified, native speakers applying for the limited positions on offer. Understandably, as has been the case in countries like Japan for decades, non-natives find it hard to break into these positions. But in such a growth market as China, I'm sure there are plenty of other opportunities that I'll be able to get if I work hard at the language.

Far more important for me is that if I'm intent on living in China for a significant portion of my career, I'd like to have a better understanding of the language than "enough to get around". My motivation is partly from the career considerations above, but more so from reducing the number of social situations in which average Chinese will limit my participation.

Couldn't agree more.

[gato]

As you say yourself, expat bankers working in Hong Kong tend to have precious little time to visit places outside of Central and therefore trips to the mainland are unlikely to happen very often. Besides, I don't really have a desire to go back into finance as I've done nothing but work 12+ hours a day for most of my 20s and it's about time I did something else.

They don't get out of Central much because they tend to live and work in Central, but since a lot of the clients are in mainland, there should be plenty of chances to travel to and get to know mainland. I can see the benefits of take some time off after so many years of long hours, and the downside is probably limited. But since your ultimate interest is to establish a career in China, working in banking here is a great way to build contacts in the area and to find jobs outside of banking. I don't know if it's realistic for you to find a job completely outside of finance (since that's where your experience and comparative advantage is), but certainly it should be possible to find jobs outside of banking once you get settled.

You might be interested in getting into contact with Michael Pettis, who's currently a finance professor at Beida's management school. He was an MD at Bear Stearns (until 2001, long before the meltdown). I've emailed him a little bit. He seems pretty friendly. You could tell him about your plans and see what he thinks.

http://carnegieendowment.org/experts/?fa=expert_view&expert_id=444

Michael Pettis

[Guest realmayo]

Also the great thing with quitting your career to go study Chinese is that, if after a year you decide you want to go back to that career, it is easy (I did it) to put that year in a postive light -- everyone knows China is important etc etc. You can spin your new familiarity with China & Chinese as a career progression thing rather than because you wanted/needed a break. Unlike someone who goes off snorkelling for a year or whatever.

[xDragonx]

They don't get out of Central much because they tend to live and work in Central, but since a lot of the clients are in mainland, there should be plenty of chances to travel to and get to know mainland.

Unfortunately when we travel on business we don't get chance to see too much as we tend to fly in early in the morning and straight out in the evening (or the next morning) but that could just be my firm. I definitely accept your point though: the amount of exposure I'd get to the mainland from Hong Kong is infinitely more than I'm likely to get from sitting in an office in New York or London.

since your ultimate interest is to establish a career in China, working in banking here is a great way to build contacts in the area and to find jobs outside of banking. I don't know if it's realistic for you to find a job completely outside of finance (since that's where your experience and comparative advantage is), but certainly it should be possible to find jobs outside of banking once you get settled.

Definitely worth considering.

You might be interested in getting into contact with Michael Pettis, who's currently a finance professor at Beida's management school. He was an MD at Bear Stearns (until 2001, long before the meltdown). I've emailed him a little bit. He seems pretty friendly. You could tell him about your plans and see what he thinks.

http://carnegieendow...w&expert_id=444

Michael Pettis

That's a very useful contact; I'll try and speak to him. Thank you!

Also the great thing with quitting your career to go study Chinese is that, if after a year you decide you want to go back to that career, it is easy (I did it) to put that year in a postive light -- everyone knows China is important etc etc. You can spin your new familiarity with China & Chinese as a career progression thing rather than because you wanted/needed a break. Unlike someone who goes off snorkelling for a year or whatever.

Good point. Thank you!

[dlee85]

It's great to see the late twenty-somethings taking risks.

Something icebear said really hit home with me - Staying on with a job you dislike in a setting that doesn't spark you also is a risky thing to do with your life.' (Sorry, don't know how to quote on here)

I'll be 27 myself when I take a break from my career and head back out to China to study full time. My job in engineering has left me feeling a bit uninspired. If I'm going to do this it should be now whilst I don't have any commitments.

Good luck xDragonx - maybe I'll see you out in Beijing/Shanghai come Autumn.

[xDragonx]

I'll be 27 myself when I take a break from my career and head back out to China to study full time. My job in engineering has left me feeling a bit uninspired. If I'm going to do this it should be now whilst I don't have any commitments.

Good luck xDragonx - maybe I'll see you out in Beijing/Shanghai come Autumn.

Yeah, it would be great to meet up. Best of luck; I'm sure you'll have an amazing experience!

[Flare]

An alternative the OP could also consider, next to the universities and language schools in Beijing or Shanghai, is an intense immersion program with a language school outside of a tier 1 or 2 city.

I am in a similar situation as the OP and have opted for 6 months study in Shijiazhuang, Hebei, with KCE school. Currently I am topping up my language studies through a BLCU course and private teacher classes in Beijing. The advantage of spending time outside the bigger cities is

- you are immersed in a Chinese environment and get a different understanding of lifestyle and culture than life in a more metropolitan setting will give you

- very little (no) English spoken means you are pressed to putting your day-to-day Mandarin to use fast

- there is less distraction of English speaking expat nightlife

- doing a Chinese family home-stay as part of your studies can be enriching experience

Good luck

[roddy]

So, OP, which course did you choose, and how's it going?

[xDragonx]

In the end I decided to opt for ICLP.I spoke to quite a few people that had done the course before at different levels and based on their feedback, it seemed the right choice for me. My classes start in two weeks so only time will tell if I've made the right decision but I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for all your help with the decision-making process.

[OneEye]

Good luck at ICLP! While you're there, if you or anyone you know is interested in joining our weekly Classical Chinese study group, please do stop by! It looks like we'll have a session for beginners before the main meeting too.

[xDragonx]

Thanks OneEye. I forwarded the link to your study group post to all of the 2012-2013 ICLP class so if anyone is interested, I'm sure they'll let you know.

[Yadang]

Hey, xDragonx, I hope you're still here... How'd the course go?