Other uses of 的

[mtpastille]

And here's the next topic in my current onslaught of spamming on chinese-forums.com! I've done my best to search the forums for info about this, but I haven't found anything.

Usually, questions about the 的 particle revolve around one of the following two cases:

1. Describing a noun with some attribute, as in 我喝贵的啤酒。

2. The 是。。。的 construction.

But I don't have any questions about those two constructions, because they have been explained to death already. First, what I wonder about is the following way of using 的: 咱俩说的是同一个网站吗？From what I gather, in this case it means (literally translated) something like "What we're both talking about is the same website?" Correct? If so, when is it okay to use 的 in this way, and where can I ready about this way of using it?

Second, there's this sentence: 就是那个女的。Why does the 的 have to be in there? Does the sentence work without it? What's the difference?

Third, and this question may be identical to #2, I've seen both 好 and 好的 being used to mean "OK". What's the difference here?

Many thanks.

[hackinger]

Hi,

with my rather limited knowledge of Chinese grammar I would say it is case 1. The head noun after the de can be omitted if one knows it from context.

One could say 我喝贵的。 if you had the choice of drinking a cheap or an expensive beer.

I assume experts will correct me soon if I am wrong ...

Cheers

hackinger

[yialanliu]

In the topic with regards to 了 chinese can have multiple ways of using the same word. The same is true for 的 which should have over 10+ ways of using it. The same is true for 就.

The ways you provided are all correct and should not be dropped.

[jiangping]

It might be useful to think of 的 as a noun.

In this sentence: 咱俩说的是同一个网站吗？ it's being used exactly like you say. You could think of it as 你说的[话] or 你说的[事情] or 你说的[人] or 你说的[网站] or whatever, depending on the context. The important thing is that it's being modified by the stuff that comes before it.

In your second example: 就是那个女的 it's being used in much the same way. You could think of 女的 as a word meaning "female/woman/girl", but the 的 here is basically being modified by the 女. There is a class of words in Chinese that seem a bit like adjectives, but are actually nominal modifiers (I think that's the term). That basically means they're nouns that can modify other nouns but can't act as predicates. So they can appear in this position: XXX的<noun>, but not in this position 很XXX, like an adjective can. For example, you can say: 他是英国的 but usually wouldn't say 他很英国 (yes, yes, I know you actually do hear that now, but I think it's a relatively new thing). Anyway, 女 belongs in this category, which is why you often find it cropping up with 是...的.

As for 好的 I'm not really sure about the grammar behind it. I think it's just a collocation. It seems to be a bit more positive than just 好, like you're agreeing with whatever was suggested rather than just submitting to it, but that's just a personal (non-native) feeling.

[mtpastille]

Ah, so I should think of it as an omission of the noun in the first case? Very helpful!

You lost me in the second paragraph though, jiangping. Yesterday I thought that 就是 and 的 were separate in the second sentence, but isn't it just a 是。。。的 construction?

[navaburo]

mtpastille:

Chinese syntax is actually pretty logical. The 的 construction at first seems baffling, but I find it actually much more regular than the western counterparts with which I'm familar.

The way I figgured it out was by taking example sentences for which I knew the meaning, but had trouble parsing, and drawing out syntax trees for them. I know this sounds highly theoretical, but I promise it can be done easily.

Other that that, maybe the following formulae will help:

(a) Translate as genative: "X的Y" = "X's Y"

(b) Translate as 'of': "X的Y" = "Y of X"

© Translate as modifier+noun: "X的Y" = "X Y"

© Translate as compound-word: "X的Y" = "X-Y"

Two other ways to use 的:

1) I believe in Hong Kong they use 的 (de5) to mark adverbs instead of 地 (de5) as they do in the PRC.

2) There's also 目的 (mu4di4) which evokes the Japanese meaning of 的. (Which maybe was an ancient Han meaing?)

[tooironic]

Think of 女的 and 男的 as actual words, which makes sense as they cannot be derived from the sum of their parts. In this way, they are similar to 吃的 ("things to eat"), 喝的 ("things to drink") and 玩的 ("things/places to have fun") which function almost like words themselves. I agree with navaburo - Chinese syntax is indeed pretty logical, and much more so IMO than bloody European languages!

[creamyhorror]

1) I believe in Hong Kong they use 的 (de5) to mark adverbs instead of 地 (de5) as they do in the PRC.

I don't think so. If anything, misusing 的 to mark adverbs in very, very common in the PRC. It might be somewhat common in HK too, but I'm pretty sure 地 is standard for written Chinese.

2) There's also 目的 (mu4di4) which evokes the Japanese meaning of 的. (Which maybe was an ancient Han meaing?)

的 di4's meaning is still the bullseye of an archery target in Chinese, even if it's not a common meaning nowadays: 众矢之的 - the target of everyone's arrows. It's not a purely Japanese meaning. The vast majority of meanings in Japanese will be found in Chinese, albeit as older/uncommon usages.

[skylee]

1) I believe in Hong Kong they use 的 (de5) to mark adverbs instead of 地 (de5) as they do in the PRC.

In my opinion this is not true. Not that nobody uses it this way (same as on the Mainland, lots of people use it this way), but it is not formalised, unlike in Taiwan. The Taiwan Ministry of Education's dictionary specifies that 的 is "(4) 置於副詞後。同「地」。如：「慢慢的走」、「高高的飛」。"

PS - In Hong Kong, the government has spedified that 的 is an adjective marker whereas 地 is a suffix to indicate an adverb.

[skylee]

even if it's not a common meaning nowadays

Just this morning someone here said 無的放矢 on the radio, describing a policeman shooting a gangster without being able to see the target. But of courese down here it was spoken in Cantonese, but it was the same 的.

[navaburo]

Thanks for correcting me.

I'm reading a book in traditonal atm that consistantly uses 的 to mark adverbs. For some reason I just assumed it was a Hong Kong thing. I'll stick with 地 in my writing from now on though. Thanks!

[David Wong]

What part of speech is '的’ in this sentence: '他笔下的中国，美的让我陌生‘ . And what does it mean?

[skylee]

I don't know what part of speech the first 的 is (I don't know how to explain Chinese grammar), but the second one should be 得.

[David Wong]

Thanks skylee.

Edited: Nevermind. The "让我陌生＂describes the degree to which it is beautiful.

[skylee]

It describes "the China as described by him".

[skylee]

It describes "the China as described by him".

[skylee]

It describes "the China as described by him".

[Michaelyus]

I generally see 的 as a particle of its own class, generally called something like complementiser if it absolutely has to be named, although that's not wholly satisfactory really.

In 他笔下的中国, the 的 functions pretty much as in case 1 above; the noun 中国 is being described by the phrase 他笔下, which is in fact a noun phrase of location (specifically a postpositional noun phrase). Strictly speaking 他笔下 is a noun phrase being used as an attributive, but this is tantamount to saying it is behaving like an adjective, hence the 的.