Name Change

[skylee]

Outofin, 很好笑, 謝謝.

Ian, I think it is you who thinks of 敦倫 when London is mentioned.

[Ian_Lee]

Outofin, Thanks

In Cantonese, never tell the parents of your girl friend that you graduate from the University of Pennsylvania (賓州大學)

[yonglan]

Ian et al, I was not referring to the characters themselves (though I'm not pleased with the first character in Mark Twain's Chinese name and the currency is so named for it's former strength), but rather the meaning/misunderstanding of this position. The US Secretary of State is only a Minister of Foreign Affairs. Taiwanese and Chinese I talk to seem to think that s/he is also some sort of general advisor and such. And they point to the Chinese name as evidence. It's simply not the case, either in theory or in practice, unless for personal reasons.

[skylee]

Why is the US Secretary of State not called the Minister of Foreign Affairs?

I note that in Japan the post is also called 国務長官, instead of the common 外相. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

[Ian_Lee]

Back to the original topic.

It seems that the Beijing government, as well as most Chinese media and people, are as objecting as our fellow posters to the name change of Seoul. So far the reaction has been lukewarm and no organization has used the new name. Read:

http://chinese.chosun.com/big5/site/data/html_dir/2005/01/25/20050125000025.html

[Claw]

Didn't a similar thing happen when China suggested that everyone should start using pinyin names instead of the old names, like Peking -> Beijing?

[Ian_Lee]

Didn't a similar thing happen when China suggested that everyone should start using pinyin names instead of the old names, like Peking -> Beijing

I would say there are some differences between these two behaviors.

English is the international language. So some countries, like PRC, could change the English international recognized name of its capital from Peking to Beijing and asked the world to adhere to the change. Or others, like Vietnam, changed the Vietnamese as well as English names of Saigon to Ho Chi Minh City.

But what the mayor of Seoul does now is that he is not changing its capital name in English but only requests China (as well as other Chinese-speaking communities) to change how they call Seoul in their own local language.

I think the only close example is that Japan used to call China before 1945 as 支那 (which was a very derogatory term but 漢城 is not). It is just like if Sun Yat Sen or Chiang Kai Shek requested Japan to change their way of calling China from 支那 to 中国 (which of course Japan would ignore even if Sun or Chiang had actually requested).

[yonglan]

English is the international language. So some countries, like PRC, could change the English international recognized name of its capital from Peking to Beijing and asked the world to adhere to the change. Or others, like Vietnam, changed the Vietnamese as well as English names of Saigon to Ho Chi Minh City.

Pinyin ain't English.

China lobbied very hard for the adoption of Pinyin by international newspapers and organizations. It's a crap system for English speakers not learning Chinese. My family (or anyone else) can't make heads or tails of many words. They can't even make it sound like something I can understand.

But what the mayor of Seoul does now is that he is not changing its capital name in English but only requests China (as well as other Chinese-speaking communities) to change how they call Seoul in their own local language.

What the mayor of Seoul has done is to say since everyone else has come up something approximating Seoul, then why can't Chinese speakers. Seems to me that it follows your logic.

I think the only close example is that Japan used to call China before 1945 as 支那 (which was a very derogatory term but 漢城 is not). It is just like if Sun Yat Sen or Chiang Kai Shek requested Japan to change their way of calling China from 支那 to 中国 (which of course Japan would ignore even if Sun or Chiang had actually requested).

I'm not sure if I understand you. Japan has called China 中国 for at least 50 years now (since long before Chiang Kaishek died). Why did they change it?

[bhchao]

I'm not sure if I understand you. Japan has called China 中国 for at least 50 years now (since long before Chiang Kaishek died). Why did they change it?

Japan changed it from 支那 to 中国 after WWII ended. There is one exception though. The governor of Tokyo today still calls China as 支那.

[woodcutter]

Since so many people here are so excited about the rise of China as a regional and international power, they should be happy if the Koreans are asking them to use a more suitable name. Maybe that means China and what it does is of wide importance.

Anyway, why worry? The Koreans aren't going to declare war if Chinese people don't use the new name they have given Seoul in "Hanja", which is also for internal consumption. After all, they hate the designation "Chaoxianzu", but they haven't made a diplomatic fuss about it.

[yonglan]

Why is the US Secretary of State not called the Minister of Foreign Affairs?

The easy answer to your question is because America doesn't have Ministers' date=' but rather Secretaries (and two Generals, for medicine and justice).

But I suppose what you are really asking is why State?

Well, the Chinese usage is like the English usage of Yangzi River for the Long River. The Chinese once called it that but long ago changed it's name. In fact, I've met not a small number of Taiwanese and Chinese who are unaware of its former name entirerly. The US used to have a Department of Foreign Affairs. It was changed to Secretary of State in 1789 because some domestic duties were given the Department of State for a time. It has for at least a century (if my memory serves me) had purely foreign responsibilities with a couple of silly exceptions such as it has custody of the Great Seal (big whooppie!).

For those who will ask, I think in English we should say the Long River.

Names and usages do take time to change, but they do change. Will Chinese start using shouer next year? Nope. But in 20 years, maybe. The books I read on Japan before going were mostly published in the 1980s and said 'yes, gaijin is not a great word but you aren't going to change the Japanese.' Those authors are eating their words as more and more Japanese every year are saying gaikokujin (as far as I can tell). Such examples abound in many languages. China has gotten English to abandon the excellent Yale system and not so excellent Wade-Giles system for Pinyin based on Pinyin's universality.

I note that in Japan the post is also called 国務長官, instead of the common 外相. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

I guess the real question would be what EXACTLY is the job description of that Japanese cabinet post? I don't know. Does someone here know precisely and for certain?

[skylee]

I meant "in Japan the post (i.e. US Secretary of State) is also called 国務長官". Sorry that I didn't make it clear.

[Quest]

HK news started calling Seoul by its new name.

[aeon]

Considering that the Chinese decided we should call their capital "Beijing" in English rather than "Peking", I don't think they'll be in a position to complain if the Koreans force a name change...

[skylee]

HK news started calling Seoul by its new name.

I have not really paid much attention to this, but I have noticed that when the city's name does appear, it is either in the form of 漢城(首爾), or 首爾(漢城).

[Quest]

Considering that the Chinese decided we should call their capital "Beijing" in English rather than "Peking", I don't think they'll be in a position to complain if the Koreans force a name change...

That's a little different. Both "Peking" and "Beijing" are phonetic translations, but 汉城 has a meaning.

Skylee, I was talking about TVB news.

[skylee]

Oh that. RTHK is also using the new name in weather reports.

[wushijiao]

Didn't Korea just vote to move part of its capital to some suburb outside of Seoul? Doesn't that further confusion about the new title?

[woodcutter]

Skylee - that song (which I like a lot) is popular in Japan, and somebody told me "onara" means fart in Japanese!

The President of Korea would like to move the capital to a greenfield site some way from Seoul, but he can't force it through. Therefore he has decided to concentrate on having plastic surgery instead.

[aeon]

That's a little different. Both "Peking" and "Beijing" are phonetic translations, but 汉城 has a meaning.

Not different. My point was that both changes were done without thought of the sensibilities of those on the receiving end.

Pinyin sucks as a way of representing the sounds of Chinese in English to those who haven't studied it.

Perhaps proper nouns and personal names worldwide should all be represented by their original spelling in their own scripts in all languages, then everyone would be happy?