Masters vs. Chinese

[mdk31]

Hi,

Currently, I'm enrolled in a masters program in mathematics and I'm applying for the Chinese Government Scholarship to study Chinese. I thought that, in a growing economy like China's, having a command of the language would better my chances of getting a job, either with a Chinese firm or a US-based one that does business in China. Plus, I would be building up my "social capital," making connections in country, etc. However, it means that I would have to leave my masters program. I doubt that I would be able to be re-admitted in the future, with full funding, because I technically switched to the masters from the Ph.D prgram.

What does everyone think? On the slim chance that I get the scholarship, do you think a graduate degree in mathematics or command of a foreign language would provide more useful job prospects? I just see so little opportunities for bachelors in math here in the US that I wondered if it would be better to stay in the graduate program.

[gato]

How long is the Master's program? Why not finish it?

If your main goal is to improve your chances of getting a job, I recommend that you start learning programming and maybe get a Masters in computer science. The demand is still high for programmers.

Learning Chinese won't really do much for your employment chances unless you are fluent, and have another job skill, to boot. It'll probably take at least 3 years of full time study to become fluent.

[T-revor]

If you are thinking of going to improve your chances of employment, I would not go to study Chinese. I would stay in your math graduate program or switch to an engineering or computer science degree. Assuming that finding a job as a recently-minted math "master" in China is equally as difficult as finding one in the US (and it likely is harder), and assuming your math skills are equally good as the millions of Chinese looking for a job (and let's assume that they are), you will be at a disadvantage in China b/c natives will know (1) Chinese language, (2) Chinese culture and (3) other Chinese people.

[mdk31]

Thanks for the responses. I was just wondering if I would be useful to a company that does business in China and requires someone who knows both languages. I hope that I would be good enough for that after about 2 years.

Or is there not a lot of demand for people who speak both?

I guess I could finish my degree, but I feel that, if I get this scholarship and turn down the opportunity, it's unlikely ever to come up again.

Hard decisions....

[T-revor]

If you want to go for the thrill of going and for trying something new or for just getting out of a math degree that you aren't really interested in anyway, I'd say it's worth looking into. It sounds a bit like you're looking for something fun, and maybe an escape. Learning Chinese in China is exciting for about the first 2 weeks.

I am not a cynical person, and I don't mean to come across that way. But I've seen lots of people going to China as a fun escape only to find that it really is hard work and often, it is time not well spent -- the clasess aren't what they thought they would be, the scholarship isn't what they thought it would be, their landlord holds them as an endentured servant and keeps their return flight plane ticket, etc.

If you'd been studying Chinese in the U.S. for a year and really had a passion for the language and the culture I would give different advice. But if you're looking for job security, my employer can't get enough good non-H1b software developers. Not as sexy as a few years in the orient, but the terms of my endenture are generally agreeable. : )

[animal world]

You didn't say but I suppose that you're working on your Master's degree somewhere in Europe or the US. You're interested in China because you perceive that there will be better job opportunities over there because of the continued growth of the Chinese economy. I don't believe that is necessarily so. There are very lucrative jobs available in both Europe and the US for someone with a degree in mathematics. Jobs like actuary come to mind. I hate to say it but firms on Wall Street also like to hire away people with your background from more worthwhile pursuits in order to devise more crappy investment vehicles that will make a few hedge funds rich but otherwise don't contribute a dime to the overall economy. Bien au contraire ! (:

So, you need to find a niche that will interest you and that will continue to need good people. As suggested by several posters, software development is an excellent area.

If China and its language are so appealing to you, why not learn Chinese on your own time? Once you have your Master's, you could alway contemplate moving to China. Once there, you could learn Chinese for real but you will already have a foundation to improve your knowledge of the language on.

Oh, there are always more opportunities in life, if you keep your eyes and mind open

[gato]

You should just assume that learning Chinese is as likely to increase your chance of getting a job as learning the piano. It won't make that much of a difference. You should do it for the fun of it.

[jkhsu]

There are already lot of people who are good at math and Chinese in China!

Seriously though, get your MS in Math first, then take a trip to China for a few months and do some networking. Get a feel of how it's like to live there long term. Then decide if you want to brave it out there or not. You're probably the n-th person (and I was one of them a while back) thinking about quiting something in the US and looking for opportunities in China. It's simply not that easy and it is actually super competitive. If it were 10-15 years ago, then things might have been different.

In terms of your major, my suggestion is to go the MS of Financial Engineering route and try to find your way into banking. If that's not possible, finish up your math degree and get into something like actuary (as suggested by animal world) or get into some economics related field. While software engineering is "stable", it's also a commodity. Technology changes too quickly and long term stability is just not there.

[feihong]

I agree with a lot of previous comments, but I want to focus on the Chinese government scholarship you mentioned. I can't imagine this is all that amazing of an opportunity, compared to a fully-funded masters degree in mathematics (I'm assuming you got a fellowship and not an assistantship). There are so many ways to study Chinese these days, and there's no reason you can't start studying Chinese now, even while you are enrolled in your masters program. But the vice-versa is probably not true.

You should ask yourself this question: Do I have the self-motivation to start studying Chinese on my own, right now, without being enrolled in a full-time program? If not, then you might not have what it takes to get to that level of fluency required for a business setting. As with so many other things in life, school can provide a solid foundation, but you have to push yourself across the finish line.

[mdk31]

Thanks again. Unfortunately, I think T-revor hit the nail on the hand. I've been doing math for 5 years now, and I'm just burnt out. It's a subject that I was never really good at, but something I used to have an interest in. It's all kind of dissipated now. I have a fascination with Chinese and I really want to do something different. I know this isn't a very good basis for making long term decisions but.....que sera. More than likely, the scholarship is so competitive, the government will make the decision for me.

It doesn't look like my job prospects will be helped by doing Chinese, but I'm not sure if I have it in me for another year and a half of math. I don't think I could bring myself to do Wall Street work, but I think the general consensus on here is that advance degrees in either economics or computer science would be useful? I suppose all these programs would be here when I got back. I know I could go over there after finishing my degree, but I'm wary of going over there on my own, without some institutions support, and having to pay for my own housing, etc.

[animal world]

I suspected a little that disenchantment with math was the reason for your interest in China. You are looking to us to give you validation to shuck your master's program and hop off to China. I would say the decision is all yours. It would be wise to complete you Master's in Math since this will be a worthwhile credential to have no matter what you will do later on. Yeah, you're burned out but lots of people are burned out with lots of things and they see it a through for a while. A year and a half to finish a Master program in math doesn't seem such a long time to me.

This is just my opinion but, needless to say, you are free to do whatever you want.

[icebear]

Just to reinforce what others have stated: now is pretty late to give up on something that you've almost accomplished, and with funding. Many people in my masters program complain more and more as we near the end, but it would be crazy to invest so much time and hard work only to walk away with nothing. If I were you I'd suck it up, study Chinese independently for an hour a day during the next year and a half that you are finishing your masters, and during that time evaluate if you'd like to make the move to China afterwards (you'll probably be a stronger candidate with some Chinese studies under your belt, as well as a rigorous academic degree completed).

[GaryM]

Just to give you a slightly different perspective. If you are motivated to learn Chinese, and you also learn programming (which should not be difficult from a maths background), then I think that you would find opportunities in China.

Whilst it is true that there are a lot of people with math skills in China, many of who no doubt also have good english skills, there will be a small number of jobs where the company is looking for a Westerner. Just to give one example, this article was written a few weeks ago relating to problems with outsourcing in the games development industry, where cultural context is an added dimension that is often lacking when outsourcing;

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/PaulCulp/20120221/9496/The_Secondary_Costs_of_Outsourcing.php

Most skilled linguists are quite understandbly from arts or humanities backgrounds, so people who have technical and language skills can be quite rare. There are not lots of positions of this type, but they do exist.

I learned Japanese, completed my Masters then found work in Japan. I am sure you could do something similar in China, if that is what you really want. As other people have pointed out however, learning Chinese is not an easy option!

[Silent]

I completely agree with animal world. It doesn't really matter what you chose to do in the end. In many fields the exact education is not that relevant. If you've proven to have the skills and endurance to reach a certain level that will suffice. If apart from your study you've done something not too common to stand out there's a good chance a prospective employer will notice your C.V. and have a serious look at it instead of a quick scan.

With a degree under the belt a lot of doors will open that without a degree will stay closed, or at least will be very hard to open. Finish your math degree and then a year of Chinese in China is imho much better than drop out, go a year to China and start a new study afterwards. If you drop out you'll need to do a complete degree program again. With the math degree a decent course rather then a degree program after you return from China is likely to be enough to get a job in the field you desire. This save a lot of time and money.

[imron]

That article from Gamasutra makes a number of valid points, but this statement is completely off.

but central to this is the fact that China is still a communist country and they aren’t as subject to playing by market rules within their own country. Worker’s salaries aren’t necessarily dictated by the market. They’re simply dictated.

[jkhsu]

I thought that, in a growing economy like China's, having a command of the language would better my chances of getting a job, either with a Chinese firm or a US-based one that does business in China.

Ok, let's focus on the end goal here. Your goal is to find a job in China. Most of the people here (including myself) are telling you to finish your math degree first. Another thing you should know is that degrees mean a big deal to companies in China. In my opinion, a masters degree in math from a reputable US University is far more advantageous than a Chinese language degree for foreigners from a Chinese University. Plus, a math degree is very versatile. You don't even need to work in a math related field. BTW, I'm doing something completely different from my undergraduate degree.

That said, I am actually less concerned with you wanting to take a break or dropping out of your degree than with your reasoning. In a previous job, I've met plenty of Stanford PhD candidates dropping out to join a start-up company that eventually went public. This is a common occurrence and not a problem. However, if your goal is to find a job in China, then you need to know that if you (a Westerner) are not qualified for a job in China, it is most likely not because of your Chinese language skills but your lack of work experience / skills. Let me tell you, there are very few jobs (unless you are a translator) that require you to be fluent in both Chinese and English. Job reqs that say this usually require you to be fluent in one of them (most likely Chinese). To be honest, if you see both requirements, it's likely a job for a Chinese national who needs to have decent English skills. If a job really required native level English such as creating marketing / sales materials for a Western audience, I highly doubt they'd not hire you because of your Chinese language skills. It's easy to fill in the gap with a junior translator / admin between you and the Chinese speaking personnel. The point is, look at learning Chinese as a hobby. Have fun, enjoy it and try to get as far as you can. But don't count on it making you money, just like playing the piano.

May I suggest an alternative path? If you are certain you don't want to finish your master's degree and you definitely want to work in China, why don't you start looking for a job now? Begin with your University's alumni group and contact companies with offices in China. Get in touch with recruiters who specialize in finding jobs for foreigners in China. Contact the American Chamber of Commerce (under the working groups section there are forums and committees with contacts). Take a month off, travel to China and try to meet with as many expats as you can who are working there.

If you end up finding a job in China, you can then study part-time in the evenings with a tutor. After a year or two, your Chinese will be at a conversational level and you'll be able to get by comfortably in China. Plus, during that time you'll have enough money to actually enjoy life there. Later, if you feel the need to go back to school for some reason, you can apply to something like the China Europe International Business School.

[GaryM]

I agree with you completely imron. The article is biased and the person who wrote it has imperfect knowledge of China to say the least. I just wanted to give it as one example where a foreigner might be deemed as useful in an outsourcing company in China.

If things work out I will be joining a WOFE that specializes in manufacturing outsourcing in China. Part of my remit would be to investigate the possibility of developing software outsourcing as part of the business. I have over 20 years experience in software development. Assuming no mishaps, in a couple of years time I can definitely see myself recruiting chinese-speaking Westerners who have technical expertise. My concern is whether or not I will be able to find any. If I am thinking along these lines, I am pretty sure that there will be other people thinking the same thing. Some Western software games development companies have been in China for years, and have specifically recruited some Westerners to get the balance of the teams right. I know that there are not a lot of jobs of this variety, but there are also not a lot of Western engineers who speak Chinese. A science degree, language skills and a technical skill are quite a combination.

[roddy]

if I get this scholarship and turn down the opportunity, it's unlikely ever to come up again.

I think you're telling yourself that as you'd quite like to stop studying maths. Look at the cash value of the scholarship - what would it cost you in terms of fees, accommodation and living costs to do it on your own dime? It'll be a chunk of money, but I'd wager it's not completely unreachable, especially when you bear in mind you can fund yourself by working as you go.

[HedgePig]

While not disagreeing with what has been said, I do think that one needs to be a little cautious of assuming that being competent in Chinese would automatically make one very attractive to a foreign company operating in China. There are increasing number of Chinese people whose English language skills are very good, including those who have studied and worked overseas and are now considering returning to China because it's a happening place to be. I thaink that 10 years ago, very few Chinese people wanted to return to China because it was seen as a sign of "failing" overseas but that view has changed signficantly, so there are plenty of returness who are fluent in Chinese and also speak very good English.

I also think that having a Master's degree would increase your chances of getting work in China. I'm not sure how much Chinese you already know. However, if you haven't started studying it yet, don't underestimate the amount of effort required to achieve the level of fluency you would need to fill some sort of bridging role on a company. (On the othe rhand, you may progress very quickly - I shouldn't project my own lack of ability onto you!)

Best of luck with your decisions.

[GaryM]

I hope that my posts did not give the wrong impression. I don't want to mislead people from a technical background into thinking that they would instantly be in demand in China with Chinese language skills. At the same time, I think that it is fair to give people from this kind of background some idea as to what their particular niche may be if they want to go down this route.

That niche exists where a foreign company has discovered that efficiency is optimal when they have a diverse team locally in China. In software development the communication dynamics between team members and organizational development is key to productivity. This has a cultural dimension that does not relate specifically to fluency. So, a Chinese person who speaks perfect English may well engage with other group members in a fashion different from that which is typical of Westerners. My experience relates primarily to Japan, but from what I know of China and Chinese people the dynamics are likely to be similar. Whilst my response was addressed to someone who has little work experience, it is doubly true for Western engineers with extensive experience who also have the language skills.

Salary is also a key issue. Maybe 10 years ago technical staff would be expecting to receive an expat package when working in China. Given the employment prospects in the West, even people from a technical background can find it difficult to get started. If you have a gifted science or maths graduate who is prepared to work in China at local salary rates to get some work experience and learn Chinese, there are definitely employment prospects. This applies to experienced as well as to less experienced individuals. For an inexperienced engineer, this might mean initially earning less than you could earn as an English teacher, but with better prospects over the longer term.