Masters vs. Chinese

[mdk31]

I think you're telling yourself that as you'd quite like to stop studying maths. Look at the cash value of the scholarship - what would it cost you in terms of fees, accommodation and living costs to do it on your own dime? It'll be a chunk of money, but I'd wager it's not completely unreachable, especially when you bear in mind you can fund yourself by working as you go

I think that's broadly correct, I'm looking for an excuse to stop this degree and, like a previous poster said, I'm looking for other people to validate my probably not so smart decision. I know it's ultimately my choice though.

However, I think I was being slightly misleading about the ease of my degree. Yes, I only have about a year and a half to go, but I've been in this program for a year now. I've only got one class for credit out of six; the rest I've audited. So, in thinking about how I'll make my decision, I really haven't invested too much in this program. And it looks like I might not be able to get funding for this summer, meaning I'd have to pay out of pocket. All of this is currently factoring into my thinking.

[animal world]

Ah, now you're telling us!

So, in reality you only have done one course in a two-year master's program and it took you one and a half years to achieve this. If you feel completely out of your league in this program and you really don't like pursuing it, then you might as well cut your losses now. You might want to consider what it is that you want to do in life--beyond going off to China for a while. Best of luck to you.

[Guest realmayo]

Ignoring the stuff about maths and your current life: do you think that two years Chinese study on the course you've got the scholarship for will give you good enough Chinese to usefully participate in grown-up Chinese language conversations with colleagues? Have you studied it before?

Then again there are plenty of good reasons to go study Chinese in China for a couple of years, and some of these might be precisely what you're looking for: change of scene, different perspectives, blah blah.

[icebear]

Ah, now you're telling us!

So, in reality you only have done one course in a two-year master's program and it took you one and a half years to achieve this. If you feel completely out of your league in this program and you really don't like pursuing it, then you might as well cut your losses now. You might want to consider what it is that you want to do in life--beyond going off to China for a while. Best of luck to you.

I agree with this. Moreover, I'll add that moving to China is a panacea for some, but not necessarily for you.

Whatever direction you decide to to take your life, you'll need to put a lot of effort into making that change worthwhile. I definitely wouldn't say China is the "easy" way to "finding yourself" or what sparks you in life - many foreigners come to China and encounter some degree of soul-rot/moral decay/general lack of direction.

[jkhsu]

Assuming no mishaps, in a couple of years time I can definitely see myself recruiting chinese-speaking Westerners who have technical expertise. My concern is whether or not I will be able to find any. If I am thinking along these lines, I am pretty sure that there will be other people thinking the same thing. Some Western software games development companies have been in China for years, and have specifically recruited some Westerners to get the balance of the teams right.

In software development the communication dynamics between team members and organizational development is key to productivity. This has a cultural dimension that does not relate specifically to fluency. So, a Chinese person who speaks perfect English may well engage with other group members in a fashion different from that which is typical of Westerners.

You're saying a lot of things in these statements and I don't agree with all of them. While in general, I agree that a diverse team is a good thing, I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'd hire specifically based on that reason. In the US, the companies that I have worked for are equal opportunity employers, meaning that they don't discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion or national orgin. When I am hiring an Engineer, I look at talent (have then done something noteworthy / remarkable), previous experience, educational background, and their ability to succeed in a company. I flip through resume books of Engineering students from two of the top Universities for Engineering (Stanford and U.C. Berkeley) often and I can't tell you how many "Asian" names I come across. When hiring, I never use a candidate's ethnicity as a factor in my evaluation.

Unfortunately in China, discrimination based on ethnicity / race happens often and it's a bad practice in my opinion. I remember reading some article saying that a while back, Chinese companies were hiring Western English teachers as managers in their companies because a Western face meant a big deal to them. The last thing I want to convey to people is that if you have a Western face, "just learn some Chinese and you can get all kinds of jobs that you would otherwise be unqualified for in the US." If I am hired, I want it to be because of my talent and skills, not for the way I look.

Salary is also a key issue. Maybe 10 years ago technical staff would be expecting to receive an expat package when working in China. Given the employment prospects in the West, even people from a technical background can find it difficult to get started. If you have a gifted science or maths graduate who is prepared to work in China at local salary rates to get some work experience and learn Chinese, there are definitely employment prospects.

You're right that 10-15 years ago, Engineers from the US were getting expat packages in China. However, that's changed now that there are more competent local Chinese staff who understand enough English to get by (in a technical environment). While the job market has slumped in the US, Engineers are still in high demand here. As you've stated, the question is whether or not someone is willing to work for local Chinese salaries. Last year, we hired an Engineer in Beijing for just under 15K RMB a month. We actually could have paid less but it was because the person had a master's degree from a US University and had decent English skills that we paid this rate. If we hired an Engineer in the US (Silicon Valley, California), it would be around $10K USD a month. Do the math and you can see that it doesn't make sense for an Engineer in the US to work in China unless he/she is paid close to US salary there.

[GaryM]

jkhsu if you read my comments you will see that I was referring to employing Westerners in a mixed team, in circumstances where that might improve the communication dynamics. I was not referring to caucausians and I was not referring to race. The cultural aspects that I was referring to relate to the way that communication is encouraged, independence and creativity are prioritized, and democratic decision making processes are more prevalent.

As for the salary issue, I agree that an engineer earning US$ 10K a month is unlikely to accept a job at 15K RMB a month. People have differing priorities in their lives. I will be accepting a salary that is approximately 30% of my previous salary for the opportunity of working in China, learning Chinese and helping to grow a business. In your words, you would "do the math" and come to the conclusion that "it doesn't make sense". People have different priorities.

One of my reasons for suggesting that inexperienced engineers should expect to earn local salary levels, is that I as a potential employer I would not want to discriminate between employees on the basis of race. One of the first things that I did when I joined an American company in Japan as a Director of Software development was to adjust the salaries so that Japanese programmers earned the same as Western employees who sat next to them. I also ensured that whenever there was a meeting carried out in English (since the programmers were not all English speakers), I explained everying in Japanese to them so that they would not be treated as second class employees.

Good managers in a multi-cultural environment understand the differences between cultures, and how this affects communication dynamics, working practices and perspectives. Creating balanced teams is one of the skills that you learn after a few years. Another important aspect is creating an environment where all employees are treated with respect and race is not an issue. Hopefully, this is something upon which we both agree.

[mdk31]

Cut your losses! I have been trying to think of that phrase this whole time.

[jkhsu]

People have differing priorities in their lives. I will be accepting a salary that is approximately 30% of my previous salary for the opportunity of working in China, learning Chinese and helping to grow a business. In your words, you would "do the math" and come to the conclusion that "it doesn't make sense". People have different priorities.

I spent a couple of years running my business with a team in China where I started off making a lot less than my full time job at the time. It's completely understandable to take a lower salary when there is a potential opportunity for growth. However, if we're talking about the same position with the same growth opportunities in both the USA and China, then pay does make a difference. Of course, there are many reasons as to why someone might want to move to China including having family / spouse there, interest in the culture / language, etc. However, if you're expecting a trend of Engineers from the West relocating to China, then we're going to have to see some salary parity first. Living in China is not cheap anymore, especially in citiies such as Beijing and Shanghai.

Another important aspect is creating an environment where all employees are treated with respect and race is not an issue. Hopefully, this is something upon which we both agree.

Yes, agreed. Perhaps your statement about Chinese persons speaking perfect English engaging with group members differently than Westerners threw me off. I know quite a few heritage Chinese people who speak perfect English and most of them were born in the USA or came at a very young age. If I were to hire them in China, I'd consider them as "Western" as someone who is not ethnic Chinese. If we agree on that, then I apologize for misreading your comment.

[gato]

I tend to think that you have to at least half a genius to do graduate studies in math, so if you are not into it, might as well switch to another field. Computer science should be much easier, especially at the Master's level. You don't have to be a genius to succeed in computer science.

Forget about Chinese as a way of improving your chances at getting a good job. Your odds of doing that through CS is much higher.

[feihong]

If your funding is about to end and you don't even want to see the degree all the way through, then it might be time to give it up. But if you don't know what your next step should be, the best thing for you to do is get a job, any job. You'll quickly learn what you do and do not like to do, and you can use that information to figure out what you ought to study next.

[wushijiao]

I'm not sure if other people have suggested this yet, but you could get a teaching license in math in the US, and then come teach in Asia (or elsewhere). Many international schools are willing to pay a lot for English-speaking, US-licensed math (and science) teachers. I had a friend who was doing that in Shanghai back in 2004 and making around 25,000 yuan/month, which, relatively speaking, is quite a bit. in other places you might be able to make $45-70,000 US. Then in your free time you can learn Chinese.

It may not be your ideal choice, but it is an option to consider.

[GaryM]

Just thought that I would add this, as it is on topic and recent;

"Job-seeking IT pro? Head for China"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/08/china_jobs_ex_pat/

If you have the language skills and a technical background, there are opportunities in China.

Your maths background is a good basis for software development, with some language skills

there are opportunities. If you can get the scholarship and teach yourself programming in

your free time, then that is not a bad path to take. The article also has a useful link to an

employment company with salary estimates. It compares quite favourably with teaching.

[T-revor]

In an earlier post on this thread, I mention:

the clasess aren't what they thought they would be, the scholarship isn't what they thought it would be, their landlord holds them as an endentured servant and keeps their return flight plane ticket, etc.

See this recent link for one example: http://www.chinese-f...tching-schools/

Edited March 12, 2012 at 10:47 PM by T-revor

[icebear]

See this recent link for one example: http://www.chinese-f...tching-schools/

Things like this happen very often.

I think it'd be more accurate to restate this without the bold faced text.

I also think the linked story is a cautionary one, in that no money was actually received (it isn't even clear what application process was undertaken) before beginning, early on tuition was asked for (contradicting the scholarship award), etc; it seems there is a mixture of naiveté and an unscrupulous school administrator. To remedy both I'd suggest applying for more 'known' scholarships with a track record of disbursement as well as looking mostly towards 1st tier cities/universities, where the level of teaching and administration should be higher.