Check dates carefully or you may lose your visa

[CapnKernel]

Hello everyone,

I'm really annoyed. Super pissed off. Incandescently angry.

My day started by dropping my phone and smashing the screen, but that was minor compared to what happened next.

I'm in China on a one-year F visa. My visa says I can't stay longer than 30 days at a stretch, so before that time, I do a visa run from Shenzhen where I live, to Hong Kong. Then on re-entry to China, I re-register at the police station (派出所). It's a hassle but I can live with it.

Last time I did this, a month ago, I asked the police station to write my last day on the registration form. They did this, writing "2012-3-4". I asked them to check it several times. So yesterday (the 4th) I rocked up at the border for a visa run, but I got turned back.

Turns out that the police station made a mistake, and the date should have been the 2nd. I got taken into the "special guests room", and told that my one year visa has been cancelled, and that because I overstayed by two days last year, they can't let me off with a warning.

F***************K!

That moron in the police station has cost me my visa, through no fault of my own!

They told me I can apply for another visa here in Shenzhen, but I have a feeling deep inside that this is going to be both painful and expensive. I don' t know what else I can do.

Should I have checked the date myself, instead of trusting it to the "experts". For sure. And I guess that's what I'm trying to say here:

DON'T TRUST ANY DATE ANY OFFICIAL EVER WRITES - do the math yourself.

If anyone has suggestions on what I can do, I'm all ears. But I suspect I'm just going to have to bend over and suck it up.

Arrrrgggghhhh!

[大肚男]

Sorry to hear, but live and learn, man, live and learn.

Bureaucratic incompetence is every where, and stories like that are very common.

[feng]

They might jsut want to collect new visa fees from you (:

But yes, for that reason I would never leave it until the last day, i would be doing closer to 28 day stints for this very reason.

[roddy]

It's obviously not about the visa fees, why even suggest it? If they wanted money they'd have fined him. The office issuing the visa is going to have nothing to do with the people stopping him at the border.

There's nothing wrong with leaving on the very last day - I've done it and been complimented on my efficient use of my visa by the guard at the border. You just need to make sure you know what the last day is. If you know you're going to be cutting it fine, I'd ask on the way in - the immigration folk are going to know a lot more about it than whoever happens to be on the desk at the police station.

Bit of a kick in the teeth though - let us know what happens next. This does tally with what I was told when I quizzed that border guard a while back - first time, 批评一下, second time, 严办.

Edit: Actually, what's happening now? You've had your visa cancelled and been turned back, so you've been sent into China visaless? You now have to rock up at the PSB and say 'No visa, help!'? I would have expected you to be let out, but with some combination of a talking to, a fine, and a cancelled visa. Did you opt to head back to Shenzhen and sort it out from there rather than in Hong Kong?

[xiaoxiaocao]

because I overstayed by two days last year, they can't let me off with a warning.

It's not the first time? Once I can imagine, but twice?

[panda23]

the immigration folk are going to know a lot more about it than whoever happens to be on the desk at the police station.

what if you're already in China and have concerns about your visa? if the PSB isn't trustworthy, then who is?

[gato]

I guess that PSB guy wasn't that great of a math student.

[roddy]

Leap year as well, bet that accounts for one of the days.

MrPanda - I don't know, you'd be better off getting a calendar and counting (do you count the day you enter on? I can't remember). That said, the local foreigner-registration people shouldbe reliable. But as always, if you want something done right . . .

[CapnKernel]

I went to the district police station today and met a policeman who specialises in foreigner cases like mine. Great English.

Fortunately I was accompanied by my 好朋友/guardian angel, and over the hour I was there he sweet-talked the policeman while I looked suitably penitent.

Yes, at the checkpoint I was told my visa was cancelled, and told I couldn't leave China. It's also a bit annoying that I was told to hand myself in on Monday (today) to buy a new visa here in Shenzhen, yet when I did just that, Sunday->Monday counts as yet another day against me. For suck!

Re 派出所 staff not being good at math, call me cynical, call me paranoid, but I suspect it was deliberate on their part.

Last year, the printout that was returned had the last date on it. This year, the system leaves it blank. I asked the 派出所 lady to fill in the date for me because I wanted to make sure, and wanted it to be Not My Fault If Shit Happened[tm]. I asked her to confirm the date was right. She seemed unhappy that I was actually asking her to do something. It's possible she wrote in the wrong date in order to punish me for daring to ask. Curiously, at one point the case was being discussed amongst the policeman's colleages, and a colleague said, "that happens a lot at Xyz 派出所". Great.

The policeman spent a lot of time typing up fill-in-blank statements, which I had to sign, date and index fingerprint. Oh, the losing-face shame of red index fingerness! He then said that my case will be sent to higher up in the department for review. My friend says that to him, this means I'll most likely be successful, as otherwise the policeman just would have said no.

I've had several close calls in the past with over-zealous officials in my country, and I've always successfully beaten them: Read up on the law, work out which loophole to exploit, make a case to the magistrate, and win. That trick just doesn't work in China.

What I've learned from my friend is that more often than not, and this happened today, you will get someone who can see that a department mistake was made and would actually like to help you. Yeah, surprises me too, but there you are. It seems there's an inverse relationship between how big you make your case, and how easily your policeman can fix it. We all know that getting angry doesn't get you what you want in China, but this is something else. This is helping them help you. So you want to keep as low a profile as possible. Play along with them, be friendly, engage them in conversation, and as subtly as you can, get them to reverse roles with you to increase their sympathy. This insight into working with the bureacracy was a real eye opener, and almost (almost) worth the pain of the whole exercise.

There's no way I want this to happen again. I will not only be moving to a 28 day schedule, but setting a reminder for a few days before in my phone.

I am living and learning...

[icebear]

We all know that getting angry doesn't get you what you want in China, but this is something else. This is helping them help you. So you want to keep as low a profile as possible. Play along with them, be friendly, engage them in conversation, and as subtly as you can, get them to... [some faux-Machevelli tangent]

You'd be surprised that being cordial/humble works wonders with authorities in many countries, actually.

Good luck with your visa issues.

[roddy]

Interesting one. If there are any justifiable reasons for overstaying, you'd think a policeperson writing the wrong date in that 'must leave by' bit would be one.

[CapnKernel]

I have been invited to the police station tomorrow morning, where I'll learn my fate.

I suspect that I'll be successful, because otherwise they would have said by now.

[chinadude2006]

How much did you pay for the one year F visa with 30 day max each stay?

Sounds like a pain in the a** to have to leave and re-enter China every month. If you're living in Shenzhen after you've sorted this mess out why not go to Hong Kong and get a 6 month no limit on each entry visa.

[CapnKernel]

Around AUD280, some USD310 or something. So that moe-ron's fuckup has cost me about 80% of that. And I consider the monetary loss the easiest to bear.

[CapnKernel]

Is such a visa possible?

(And now with my tarnished reputation, I don't like my chances of getting one anyway)

[CapnKernel]

Yesterday I got a call from the officer at the district police station: "Come to the station at 9am tomorrow morning".

So I did. The guy says "wait here while I print out the papers". Returns with papers, and walks off, never to be seen again. A junior explains "your visa has been cancelled but good news (my words), because there was a problem, there will be no fine".

I felt like grabbing him and shaking him: "Listen you, the fine I can take, just don't commit me to a black mark on my record, and a monthly cycle of torment while I have to hang around in HK buying new visas with no guarantee of continuation!"

Of course I didn't. Not going to solve anything, and not his fault.

Regarding the officer my friend and I spoke with earlier, I think he did try to do the right thing and help. Just that somewhere higher up the chain, something fell off. Sigh.

So, in 8 days I receive my 10-day exit visa, giving me two days to leave China. I'm really kinda hoping they let me back in, otherwise the half-year I've put into the business investigation and systems analysis/development for my upcoming company will all be wasted, and That Would Suck. Might as well have stayed home.

(I'm on an F visa. I can't have a job here, trade, or have staff. I'm writing software for my company, developing relationships, building little tech projects, but not working-as-such)

[roddy]

You might want to have a read of this - longer visas can be had in Hong Kong. But in your case . . .

[CapnKernel]

Very interesting thread, thank you.

But in your case . . .

Go on, make me feel bad

[chinadude2006]

Yep, you can get a 6 month no limit on each stay F visa through an agency in Hong Kong. Costs HKD$2000 (1600rmb). Best thing is you can get it in a day. Not sure if they would reject your application because of the mess you are in now, but it can't hurt trying.

[roddy]

Ah, you were feeling bad anyway. Seriously though, my assumption is that the people issuing those visas do not want the potential hassle of someone overstaying or getting into trouble and then the PSB trying to track down who signed off on the visa. So if they spot that you've overstayed before, they may well decide that you're not a risk worth taking. I suspect the agent in HK may specifically ask if you've overstayed or been refused a visa before, not sure.