即使 vs 虽然

[Daniw de Leon]

Do we have an existing post on the difference between 即使 and 虽然? I tried searching but haven't found any.

[imron]

I don't think so. What's your question.

[jkhsu]

Here's an answer I found online: http://wenwen.soso.com/z/q178886400.htm

It's basically saying that 即使 is used for something that hasn't happened yet and 虽然 is used for something that has already happened. You can also add 但是 / 可是 to the back of a sentence starting with 虽然 but not with 即使.

[imron]

I'm not sure that's strictly accurate. 即使 is used for conditional/hypothetical situations whereas 虽然 is used with factual things or things that you assume to be a given (but that don't affect/change some secondary statement). The future is often conditional and the past is often factual so that falls basically into what you've described above, but it's not necessarily a limiting factor (e.g. you could have a conditional situation talking about something that has happened, and you could also have something that will happen in the future that you assume will happen no matter what).

Anyway, you can think of these words as:

即使 - even if

虽然 - even though

[jkhsu]

I like imron's explanation better than what I found on the web.

[tooironic]

即使 - even if

虽然 - even though

I like this explanation from a learner's point of view, though you should keep in mind that 即使 may be translated as either "even if" OR "even though" depending on the context, since in English they are two different concepts, while Chinese doesn't care if it's a past thing or a condition.

[creamyhorror]

The difference is pretty clear - as imron said, 即使 is "even if" and 虽然 is "although".

I like this explanation from a learner's point of view, though you should keep in mind that 即使 may be translated as either "even if" OR "even though" depending on the context

Eh? 即使 is used for conditionals or hypotheticals, while "even though" is used for actuals. I don't see the overlap.

即使他昨天去，也不一定能见到她。 <-- 即使 denotes that he didn't go yesterday

Even though he went yesterday, he might not have been able to see her. <-- "even though" denotes that he did go yesterday

edit: I've changed my opinion a bit - see post #13

[Guest realmayo]

nciku has these two examples first up, seems pretty clear?

即使他不来，我们也照样干。

Even if he doesn't come, we'll go ahead as usual.

即使分手了，他们还是朋友。

Even though they've split up they're still friends.

[Guest realmayo]

Also this one:

即使国力强盛，也不称霸

Can this be translated as both:

i) even if a country is strong ....

ii) even though a country is strong .....

[creamyhorror]

即使分手了，他们还是朋友。

Even though they've split up they're still friends.

I think I would only use 虽然 for this. Hmm, I guess I'm wrong then, even though my understanding is the same as the ones posted by jkhsu and imron.

Every other sentence example on that page is a case of "even if", and the definition of 即使 is given as "表示假设兼让步" (expressing hypotheticality and concession), so I think that sentence isn't quite mainstream, even if some people use it.

[tooironic]

Again, keep in mind that "even if" and "even though" are English concepts of time. Chinese is much more flexible... and/or vague.

[Daniw de Leon]

Thanks for the explanations and examples imron, creamyhorror and realmayo!

[creamyhorror]

Again, keep in mind that "even if" and "even though" are English concepts of time. Chinese is much more flexible... and/or vague.

I'm quite clear on the distinction between 即使 and 虽然. 即使 maps very well to "even if", and 虽然 to "although" (not "even though").

即使 is defined as "表示假设的让步" by the 现代汉语词典 and the examples it gives are hypothetical, i.e. "even if": "即使取得大成绩，也不能自满"; "即使你在场，恐怕也没办法". Same with the Taiwan MOE dictionary: "即使餓死也不願向人乞討". They don't give examples where the clause following 即使 is a definitely established fact.

Googling for 即使分手了 gives a few examples of a non-hypothetical usage: e.g. "即使分手了也要开开心心！！！" This usage is concessionary (让步) but not clearly hypothetical (假设), which is not strictly correct by nciku's and 现代汉语's definitions, but I don't have a major problem with it. It still works like "even if": "Even if we've split up, I'm still going to be happy!" In this case 即使 can indeed be translated as "even though". It's also possible to translate this as "Even if you split up, you gotta be happy!", which would be a hypothetical usage.

I guess something similar may be happening in "即使分手了，他们还是朋友。" - this sentence doesn't simply mean "Although they've broken up, they're still friends"; rather, I think it means "Even (if/considering that) they've broken up, they're still friends [unlike what you're arguing/implying]." In other words, using 即使 has to imply concession; it's not purely narrative like 虽然 often is.

(As an aside, I seem to recall that the distinction between 即使 and 虽然 was emphasised in school. Maybe that distinction isn't so preserved in common or regional usages. If I'm wrong on anything, corrections are welcome.)

[skylee]

I find the differences mentioned above fascinating. I think you guys might also wish to discuss the usages and/or differences among the above two terms as well as 即便 / 縱使 / 儘管.

[imron]

I read 即便 and 纵使 as 即使。金庸 tends to use 纵使 a lot.

[Kenny同志]

即便 is good too.

[skylee]

即便 is good too.

Not sure what yout mean, but indeed it is a good word, very elegant.

[Kenny同志]

I agree.

[shinewind]

Reading one reply I am convinced a little bit.

Reading two, confused.

More than that, totally lost.

I kinda feel that the disscussion is making the concept "晦涩" instead of making it “简单明了”. I DO agree with tooironicthat Chinese is more flexible and, very often, rules don’t rule in Chinese.

[skylee]

I DO agree with tooironicthat Chinese is more flexible and, very often, rules don’t rule in Chinese

I agree with you. Rules don't rule in Chinese (at least some of the time, or at least in that written/spoken by the Chinese themselves . For example, how can one explain why many people insist on using 的 in place of 得 and 地 all the time? )