An advertisement in Hong Kong

[ala]

A language learning advertisement in HK's central station:

[Dav-X]

I've never heard that any of my friends from hongkong have ever learnt Shanghaiese, though some of them has stayed there for a year. With a rise of putonghua in Hong kong schools, i reckon that shanghaiese, without the support from pop culture, is almost impossible to attract sufficient learners. Any change recently, you think?

[ala]

I agree. There's no pop interest in Shanghainese. People who end up learning it can barely speak in it, there's too much hill to climb and not much benefit gained because Mandarin is available. Those planning to stay in Shanghai permanently often do take up Shanghainese simply because they want to understand what is going on around them. A lot of Shanghainese classes also are structured very poorly, and often deal with a set of pronunciations that is no longer mainstream, further confusing the learner and wasting his time.

The lack of contemporary broadcasting in Shanghainese is the most frustrating aspect of all, this is mostly due to the restrictions imposed by government policy as opposed to a lack of demand.

The government is most tolerant of the various Mandarin dialects, followed by Cantonese (because of Hong Kong) and Minnan (because of Taiwan). Some people have jokingly suggested that in 50 years, the only "southern" dialect of Chinese left is going to be Sichuan-hua (Southwest Mandarin).

[Gary Soup]

I agree. There's no pop interest in Shanghainese. People who end up learning it can barely speak in it, there's too much hill to climb and not much benefit gained because Mandarin is available. Those planning to stay in Shanghai permanently often do take up Shanghainese simply because they want to understand what is going on around them. A lot of Shanghainese classes also are structured very poorly, and often deal with a set of pronunciations that is no longer mainstream, further confusing the learner and wasting his time.

I think there's also some goodwill to be gained by picking up some Shanghainese. My observation (as a laowai) is that I could speak near-fluent Mandarin and Shanghainese people would most likely just shrug their shoulders. But when I make use of my smattering of conversational Shanghaihua they fall all over me.

[liuzhou]

when I make use of my smattering of conversational Shanghaihua they fall all over me.

Best reason I've heard yet for NOT learning it!

[ala]

My observation (as a laowai) is that I could speak near-fluent Mandarin and Shanghainese people would most likely just shrug their shoulders. But when I make use of my smattering of conversational Shanghaihua they fall all over me.

Yeah, the reaction with Shanghainese is quite the opposite from foreigners trying to speak Cantonese in Hong Kong.

[Guest IVYtony]

i't's good to learn some dialects, that is to reserve local culture though. ;(

[Harpoon]

Yeah, the reaction with Shanghainese is quite the opposite from foreigners trying to speak Cantonese in Hong Kong.

what's the Cantonese people's reaction?

[ala]

what's the Cantonese people's reaction?

I could give you personal anecdotes, but the really long thread linked below is far more detailed and interesting. There are many more threads like this. The first post is also included below.

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,16642

Traumatized by Cantonese

Posted by: Traumatized (IP Logged)

Date: Dec 2, 2004 06:37

Hi, it's me, Traumatized.

I've been in Hong Kong the past four weeks. I'm here for about four or five more months.

I studied Cantonese very hard for a couple years, and really looked forward to coming.

So I came and told people at the office that I studied Cantonese for a long time. I smiled and asked if they could help me practice conversation with them if they had time. I was so happy.

Not one Cantonese conversation has taken place.

With nobody. I smile and speak in Cantonese and say can I practice and they answer back in English only.

Among themselves they speak Cantonese all day long. But never to me even once. I speak and ask if they can speak back in Cantonese too so I can enjoy practicing since it's fun, and they still only speak English.

And at stores almost every single time I've spoken Cantonese people have answered back in English.

Often with a disgusted look on their face that I'd try to speak Cantonese to them when they know English.

Why in the world should I study then?

On the train, people see me reading a Chinese book and ask if I'm studying, and I say yes, and say I'd like to practice speaking and can they speak in Cantonese instead of English.

They've all refused to speak Cantonese.

If I say please please Cantonese, they speak Mandarin.

I'm so peaved and disappointed. I wasted about three years studying.

Don't they want to help other people?

And be kind? And make someone else happy? Don't they think of the other person?

When I was in the US, I studied French, Mandarin, Japanese and so on, but when an international student was there studying English, I'd speak English.

I'd do it even though I wanted to practice foreign languages with them too.

I did it because they looked so happy when we talked in English.

And they came here to study English and only have a limited time there. It's just common courtsy. Trying to make the other person happy.

Then they could have a conversation in English with me and could go back to their country with a happy memory of having conversed in a language that they studied.

It's just a normal human thing to try to make other people happy.

If someone says "Can you help me practice your language in your country? I came here to practice it." it's a normal thing to try to make them happy and have a happy memory during their limited visit here!

Don't people in Hong Kong think of others? I'm totally amazed. They know

A. I'm studying Cantonese.

B. I'm here in Hong Kong to practice conversation.

C. I'm only here for a few months.

D. I'd like to talk with them to get a happy memory and practice.

But they still choose to speak English only. How selfish!! I'm so disappointed.

Other countries should make an international agreement that no Hong Kong people may speak English anywhere in the world until they are nice enough to let foreigners who go to Hong Kong to study Canonese speak Cantonese.

How come they can speak but they don't allow anyone else to speak? It's not fair.

How come Hong Kong people can study abroad and have a wonderful time speaking English with everyone, and then they don't let foreigners who come to Hong Kong speak?

The self-centered, inconsiderate chutspah is unbelievable!

I'm tired of hearing excuses. It's just so mean. They're mean to foreign students of Cantonese.

When I go back to my country and a Hong Kong person speaks in English to me, it's not going to be fun to speak back to them in English anymore. Before I thought they were nice. Now I know. It's so sad.

How come they get to enjoy speaking when they didn't let me speak during the few months I visited their country? And absolutely refused.

I've just been here four weeks and this may be a phase.

But now, the only way to continue studying Cantonese is to be very careful never to talk to Hong Kong people.

My experience with about 100 office workers, store clerks, people on the street, bookstore people, restaurant people, students, adults is enough. I can't talk to 99 more people who are mean to me to find the one nice person. The 99 are too traumatic. And the one nice person hasn't shown up yet. I just added him/her in for wishful thinking.

I'm so traumatized that I have to hide at home and watch Cantonese DVDs with Chinese subtitles in my apartment, and to never, never try to speak to any Hong Kong person in Cantonese, because there's a 99% chance they'll get miffed and refuse to let you have a Cantonese conversation and that will be so traumatic I'll have an allergic reaction and then never want to have anything to do with Cantonese or Hong Kong again.

If one more person speaks back in English to me after I speak Cantonese, I'll snap my DVDs in two and toss my Cantonese dictionaries in the bin and never have anything to do with Hong Kong again.

I want to prevent that and still have a nice feeling towards Hong Kong and the Cantonese language.

[snip]

for responses and more posts:

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,16642

[Harpoon]

hmm ala, seems like there are a lot of "Green Peas" on that forum (meaning their angry reactions to people who insist on English)

seems very similar to people's frustrations on this forum trying to speak Mandarin in China or Taiwan.

Personally I see how it can be bothering, but I don't see the huge deal. You can use your Chinese knowledge (whatever dialect) to understand what is being said around you and get listening practice, and when people talk to you English you just reply in Chinese and get speaking pratice, and you can tell if they understand you or not. Or is there more to it?

[wushijiao]

I'd say the phenomenon described in ala's post is somewhat typical of what it is like being an English native speaker trying to learn a foreign language. That's why when I made up my mind to learn Chinese I chose to live in a place in the backwards hinterland where I knew English proficiency would be minimal.

What do you expect going to a highly developed, ex-British colony?

You can use your Chinese knowledge (whatever dialect) to understand what is being said around you and get listening practice, and when people talk to you English you just reply in Chinese and get speaking pratice, and you can tell if they understand you or not.

This is a good attitude to take.

[Ian_Lee]

Actually I see this phenomenon as a general behavior of courtesy rather than rudeness.

Why? Very simple.

If that poster happened to talk with me in Cantonese in Hong Kong, most likely I would answer him/her in English too. Since his Cantonese is probably far less than fluent, I would talk back in English so that there is much less chance of mis-communication and to make life easier for him/her.

It is just like if ala, as a tourist, asks me direction in broken Cantonese in Hong Kong, definitely I will answer him back in Mandarin.

On the other hand, if those foreigners are long term residents in Hong Kong, most likely they will be answered back in Cantonese because they are assumed that they should know Cantonese fluently.

When people in HK talk to the Indian or Pakistani door guard at the bank, they usually speak Cantonese.

When the food stall owners talk to the Filipino maids who shop at the market, they also talk in Cantonese only too!

[ala]

On the other hand, if those foreigners are long term residents in Hong Kong, most likely they will be answered back in Cantonese because they are assumed that they should know Cantonese fluently.

Is this a natural assumption?

[Ian_Lee]

Ala:

That is not a natural assumption.

I once worked in one of HK's pre-consolidated stock exchanges as a floor trader. The exchange hired an Indian as the door guard who could amazingly recognize all the 300-400 faces that entered and exited the floor on every trading day.

Every trader talked to him in Cantonese and he could name everyone of us in Cantonese.

Moreover, there is in average one Indian spice shop in every market in Hong Kong. If you go shop there, everybody speaks Cantonese to the shopowner and vice versa.

[马杰]

I agree with the post that Shanghainese will love you if you speak their language. Those I talked to in Mandarin were more than willing to help me out, almost a point of pride.

If you are going to do business in Shanghai, learning Shanghainese will not only earn you brownie points, but can also CYA. Not slaming the Shanghainese but Foreign and non-Wu speaking business people find themselves occasionally getting screwed over by their Shanghainese speaking staff.

I wonder how long Shanghainese will hold out against Mandarin. I got the feeling that people of all economic groups in Shanghai loved their language more than mandarin and took alot of pride at speaking their own language in the mainland's most important and most progressive city. That does give them alot of clout against Beijing's "standardization" drive.

Speaking Shanghainese can also help in negotiating, especially as a foreigner.

[pazu]

And my Hong Kong friend of Indian origin told me they were usually a bit uncomfortable and embarrassed when people talked to them in Cantonese and suddenly praised them, "Oh you can speak Cantonese very well!" (He was born in HK.)

[zh-laoshi]

When I learned a new language, and the native speakers spoke to me in English, I'd either keep talking in their language, or pretend I didn't understand their answer. After a few times, they get the point and eventually they will speak to you in the language you've worked hard at learning.

Just don't give up and you'll get your reward.