Finding work in China w/o knowing Chinese

[jkhsu]

There's been so many posts of people planning to quit their jobs / studies to learn Chinese in hopes of finding a job in China that I thought I'd offer my thoughts in a separate thread. I am not disputing that Chinese language fluency helps when looking for jobs in China but my opinion is that you can find a job in China knowing very little or no Chinese at all. In fact, for someone who has already finished college and/or is midway in their career, taking a break to learn Chinese for the purposes of finding a job is just not the sensible thing to do.

I did some non-scientific research by browsing the job listings on jobs.shanghaiexpat.com. BTW, these listings cover greater China such as HK, TW as well. Below are the % of job listings that require a certain level of Chinese:

Native or Fluent = 73%

Advanced = 8%

Conversational = 9%

Basic or None = 10%

As you can see, the majority of listings require that you are either a native speaker or fluent. The native speaker requirement was actually the highest at 50%. I combined the native and fluent levels together because for all intents and purposes, these levels are not attainable unless you dedicate a good portion of your life learning Chinese or you happen to grow up in China. Next, let's look at the "advanced" requirement. I am not sure what that means but I'll assume that it's at least 3-4 years of full time study (maybe HSK 6?). But the important fact is, even if you get to this level, not many more doors are open to you. Sure, from the stats alone, it looks like you'll qualify for twice as many jobs as someone who is at the conversational or basic/none level, but that's still miniscule compared to those jobs for fluent or native speakers.

So what should you do if you really want to work in China but have only just started learning Chinese? I am assuming that you are not planning to completely switch careers or do something that you don't have the skill set for. My suggestions in order of preference:

1. The best way is to look for a company in your home country that has offices in China and apply for a job that requires you to be in China. An expat package is ideal but they're hard to come by these days. One idea to better your chances is to offer to take a lower salary, possibly closer to local Chinese pay. If you are currently working, then try to get to a basic / conversational level first so that you can at least get around in China. You can start by taking some evening classes and/or hire a tutor. Do this for six months and see how far you get but don't put too much pressure on yourself to try to get to some "advanced" level before looking for jobs. The important thing is that you have the passion to work in China.

2. Look for jobs in China now. This is the main point of my post. If you're sure you want to work in China (and please take a few trips / spend some time there first so that you know what you're getting yourself into), there's nothing wrong with just going there and looking for jobs. Get your resume into the hands of recruiters and network like crazy. By browsing the shanghaiexpat.com site, I was able to find quite a few (non English teaching) jobs that require no Chinese language abilities. Here are a few examples:

Technical Editor - Shanghai Wicresoft

Manager, Event and Promotion - Speck

eMarketing Manager - BOSCH

United States Sales Representative - Consumeo

I am sure there are many similar opportunities if you look at other job sites and work with recruiters. The point is, don't let your Chinese language abilities stop you from your goal of working in China. Once you do get that job in China though, make sure that you continue to learn Chinese on the side so that you can better communicate with locals and enjoy more of China.

Does anyone else have other opinions/advice? Agree/disagree?

[icebear]

This is the main point of my post. If you're sure you want to work in China (and please take a few trips / spend some time there first so that you know what you're getting yourself into), there's nothing wrong with just going there and looking for jobs.

I think for someone early in their career (say, less than 3-5 years experience) this is probably the only way you are going to get into a job in China. Exceptions exist, particularly in engineering (who are the only young foreigners I seem to meet on expat packages), but for the most part there is no good reason for entry and lower level workers to be hired from outside of China when such a huge pool of young foreigners already exist in most Chinese cities (especially first tier) and are often looking for work after their respective stints as Chinese students or English teachers. That's how I entered the job market before (after teaching English for about a year), and largely how a lot of my friends in Beijing and Shanghai did as well; the market rewards risk takers. And it is indeed a risk; many of us there knew folks that left after a year of sketchy job searches or ended up taking English teaching jobs strictly to make ends meet. (Not to knock English teaching jobs, but it certainly is non-ideal for someone that really wants to work in high-speed business.)

The thing is, for this group (mid-twenties) the option of a few exploratory trips to China to scope things out is pretty unlikely. A better shot (I think) is to work at home, save money, and then head to China with the longest visa possible (probably 3 months) and devote that time to finding a job. If you find one, great; if not, get what you can out of that time also with private classes. That's if you are in need of work sooner than later, or not satisfied with a gap year teaching English. The costlier but less rushed plan is the year or two of Chinese courses, during which time you could always leave your program for that dream job (if you find it). For those that are more easy going about it, don't worry about savings and just dive into a English teaching job and be on the lookout from day one for the jobs that you are eligible for in your chosen sector. Enjoy your year and lifestyle in the meantime. The later option is done by a surprisingly large amount of foreigners trying to break into China; some succeed and switch careers, others find teaching satisfying/fulfilling in itself, and yet another (unfortunate) group end up stuck doing something they dislike with no next step. As much as some young go-getters may turn their nose up at the English teaching backdoor in, some more senior expats in China have this experience also (although its usually cleverly edited to obscure what it was, or just not included, period - I've had quite a few mention their personal stories over a beer). There is a risk, but I think for the inexperienced one of these two routes is your most likely way in.

No comment on those with much more experience looking for the switch, except that I'd guess expectations are so high that it will be very difficult unless you probably "price" the experience you'd get out of the move (language, culture, new life on the other side of the world, etc). Discontinuous career moves are hard.

I am not disputing that Chinese language fluency helps when looking for jobs in China but my opinion is that you can find a job in China knowing very little or no Chinese at all.

Partly agree. I think there is such a wide range of jobs for foreigners in China that its hard to characterize them one way or the other. I know a handful of young foreigners that got their plum jobs specifically because they were able to respond to Chinese-ads and interview in Chinese, and now largely work using Chinese (initially at a roughly functional level - much better a few years later). Most others have conversationally decent to good Chinese but couldn't be described anywhere near business fluent. I think the majority of the "fluent" jobs advertised on English websites are actually targeting local Chinese who have English which is good enough to search on the English lists (and provide a decent cover letter, interview in English).

That said, I think its in any applicant's best interest to at least show a strong desire to learn Chinese, and hopefully have some basics down. At least in Beijing and Shanghai the market for foreigners can be pretty stiff, and Chinese that is good enough to free up a secretary from frequently holding your hand for basic tasks can be what edges you past the next applicant (e.g. will this guy need someone to help him order food every day? Ask the secretary for copies? Call DHL for a pickup? Etc - not fluent Chinese, but convenient Chinese). In other cases offices can have very little need for any Chinese but still insist on some because it keeps a tone of "Old China Hand" credibility for themselves and their clients.

The point is, don't let your Chinese language abilities stop you from your goal of working in China. Once you do get that job in China though, make sure that you continue to learn Chinese on the side so that you can better communicate with locals and enjoy more of China.

Despite what may seem like discouragement in my above paragraphs, I full agree here. There are plenty of opportunities for those with relatively little Chinese; they may not be the best but they will get your foot in the door. Work on improving it until then, and from then, and maybe your next job will be the "dream" one that really lets your Chinese shine (if that is your goal!). Also, don't fall into the trap of many expats who find a office-home-weekend routine with little Chinese and find their Chinese degrades rather than improves during their time in China!

Edited March 9, 2012 at 10:06 PM by icebear

[jkhsu]

A better shot (I think) is to work at home, save money, and then head to China with the longest visa possible (probably 3 months) and devote that time to finding a job.

Good point. I actually did just that several years ago. However, my situation was a bit different as I was running my own business with a partner in China so I was already out there. When the business was slowing down, I spent about 3 months looking for a job. I did get a few offers but the pay didn't work out for me and I had other financial obligations to take care of back in the US. But you're right that you need a good amount of time to actually find something. A two week vacation is not going to cut it.

and yet another (unfortunate) group end up stuck doing something they dislike with no next step.

This is probably the biggest risk in my mind with moving to China. I remember meeting a guy who left his banking job in the US to pursue his "dream" of working in China. He took courses and learned enough Chinese to get a job in a factory. Afterwards he tried unsuccessfully to start his own company. He said that everytime he goes back to the US on holidays, he'd see his friends doing well while he was still struggling in China. He was sort of stuck in this situation where if he went back, he'd feel that he wasted his time in China but at the same time, he's not sure if he'll ever be successful in China. I think the moral of the story is to make sure that you always have an exit plan.

[WestTexas]

Honestly I was unaware that anyone held the misconception you seem to be disputing, that knowing Chinese is necessary to work here. I think 90% of the westerners who work in China know little or no Chinese. This is doubly true for those on the higher end of the pay-scale, who will get a Chinese helper to follow them around and translate as soon as they get here, and thus have no reason to learn.

[大肚男]

I agree with West Texas, from the ex-pats I met during my time there. They barely speak mandarin, hangout with other ex-pats all the time, and work for companies were all their work is done in English. So, conversational mandarin seems to be more than enough.

If I ever make it to China to work, it would probably be in a law firm specializing in patent or IP law, so I think my current level should be good enough.

[jkhsu]

Honestly I was unaware that anyone held the misconception you seem to be disputing, that knowing Chinese is necessary to work here.

These recent posts (link1, link2, link3) are somewhat related in that the OP is hoping to make a (often drastic) change in their current education/career path by learning Chinese. In two of the cases, the OP is actually hoping to work in China. Learning Chinese is great, but to get to the point where it's going to make a difference in your career may take a lot more time and effort than you think. There is a huge opportunity cost there.

What I'm basically saying in this thread is that if you really want to work in China, then go for it now. Don't wait until you take years of classes hoping that something magical will happen. And by all means, keep learning Chinese on the side while you are working in China. That's the best way to minimize the opportunity cost. On the other hand if you have the spare time and resources or you want to get into academia, then learning Chinese full time is perfectly fine.

[icebear]

Honestly I was unaware that anyone held the misconception you seem to be disputing, that knowing Chinese is necessary to work here. I think 90% of the westerners who work in China know little or no Chinese. This is doubly true for those on the higher end of the pay-scale, who will get a Chinese helper to follow them around and translate as soon as they get here, and thus have no reason to learn.

Definitely true in the first point, but the last point is of questionable assistance to those that would be seeking job advice on this type of forum; I'm guessing those that are senior enough to command high salaries and personal translators are already well aware of their best ways in (e.g. through head hunters, internal transfers).

There is a huge opportunity cost [for changing sectors/majors/etc]...What I'm basically saying in this thread is that if you really want to work in China, then go for it now.

Definitely, but this is true of any worthwhile career/life change. I'm guessing (the Americans here) all know of a friend or two that took the big gamble and moved to NYC in their early twenties to experience the city and see how it turned out. I had a few; one or two enjoyed it but ultimately left because of unsatisfying results, another did and continues to do great and is loving it. China is slightly scarier because of a high cost ticket and different part time employment options (easier, I'd say, in that regard), but the fact is if you want to be somewhere else and are without obligations, just move.

I mentioned studying Chinese above because I think it can be helpful in edging you ahead of a similar applicant without much Chinese. More importantly for a majority of the jobs a foreigner will be eligible for, is that a Chinese study program gets you a legitimate 6 month-2 year visa for an arguably modest cost, which is definitely the biggest headache in moving to China and looking for gainful employment. It takes an arbitrary time limit off your job search and puts you in a better position when interviewing (you might be desperate for money, but at least you won't be desperate for a visa, which is a major negative if it becomes obvious in an interview), not to mention that it also (hopefully) improves a skill which can help in your job search. Again, I'm saying this from the perspective of someone in their mid-twenties.

[GaryM]

"In fact, for someone who has already finished college and/or is midway in their career, taking a break to learn Chinese for the purposes of finding a job is just not the sensible thing to do."

Sensible?

An American friend of mine once said to me about his life philosophy;

"It's a bit like being Evel Kneivel, you are flying through the air,

you are jumping over 36 busses, and the wind is in the air,

at any moment you can fall off, and come crashing down,

but you know what? It is one hell of a ride...."

Actually, he was a lawyer in Japan, so he was exaggerating a little, but you get the idea.

[jkhsu]

Actually, he was a lawyer in Japan, so he was exaggerating a little, but you get the idea.

I don't get the idea, please explain. If your goal is to find a job in China, what would you do? Take off 4 years to get a degree in Chinese language first? I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

[jkhsu]

If your ultimate goal is to work in China, I'd like to offer a bit of advice, from personal experience, that does not focus on studying Chinese. Consider an unpaid or volunteer position to gain some work experience and get your foot in the door. I found two unpaid positions while in Shanghai: one was responsible for managing the contacts of US companies for a non-profit organization and the other was being part of the management team of a startup responsible for securing funding. I chose the latter because it was applicable to the field I was interested in. I was offered basic food and boarding expenses but declined because it was out of the founder's own pocket and I could afford it at the time. In my opinion, that experience was far more valuable (business wise) than what I would have gotten from a few months of full time Chinese language classes (and I did continue learning Chinese on the side with a tutor).

BTW, I was on a 1 year multiple entry visa with a 90 day duration. I took trips to Hong Kong and South Korea for visa runs. No problems there.

[WestTexas]

Relevant to this, and to further dissuade people from working on a Chinese degree in hopes of furthering their career, one of the guys on my ESL teacher's forum has a degree in Chinese. He said he tried to get a job at many different companies in China and failed, and eventually had to settle on an English teaching job here, which practically anyone with a college degree can get. He never uses his Chinese at work since his job is to teach English.

This has actually been discussed a lot, and every serious article about it reaches the same conclusion that OP reached, that studying Chinese is generally not a good time-investment in career terms. The thing is that there are far more Chinese (and ABCs, BBCs, CBCs, Hong Kongers, etc) who already speak fluent English than there are foreigners who speak Chinese, and many of them will work for lower pay and/or under conditions most foreigners would find terrible. My ex-girlfriend, a Chinese girl with a degree in English, worked 60+ hours a week, Monday through Saturday, at an international company in Shenyang. She made 5000 yuan/month and felt this was a good salary. How many Americans are going to work 60 hours a week for less than a thousand dollars a month? Many Chinese will not only work for low pay, but they will work an absurd number of hours each week. As a foreigner, no matter how good your Chinese is, you probably won't be willing to do that much for that little.

[GaryM]

"I don't get the idea, please explain. If your goal is to find a job in China, what would you do?"

For someone who is mid-career (has some savings and has no family obligations) you could go to China and learn Chinese for two years intensively. After this you can approach smaller Western companies who have a good product and propose that you set up a subsidiary for them in China. It is not easy, but it is possible. This is exactly what I did when I went to Japan at the age of 36. I admit that I was lucky, but I don't have the monopoly on luckiness.

I agree it is not a very "sensible" thing to do. The opportunity cost is high. You may never earn back what your peers earn (I know I haven't). However, even here, you cannot anticipate the opportunities that might present themselves in the future, for having taken the "path less trodden".

If you are mid-career, realistically, you are unlikely to benefit financially. However, if your goal is to experience life, learn a new language and live in a foreign culture then I certainly would not discourage someone from taking a chance and going to China.

[imron]

However, if your goal is to experience of life, learn a new language and live in a foreign culture then I certainly would not discourage someone from taking a chance and going to China.

I think these are equally valid goals if you don't see a career as the be all and end all of life.

[icebear]

...a Chinese study program gets you a legitimate 6 month-2 year visa for an arguably modest cost, which is definitely the biggest headache in moving to China...

BTW, I was on a 1 year multiple entry visa with a 90 day duration. I took trips to Hong Kong and South Korea for visa runs. No problems there.

I'm not sure if the latter comment was in response to the former (mine), but wanted to clarify my reasoning here. I'm not saying that enrolling in a Chinese language program solves your visa problems when you are working (of course your employer should sponsor a visa!).

Enrollment in a Chinese language program can solve a few problems:

1. Lengthens your potential search time. Assuming you can walk away from the program at any point for that dream job, enrollment in a program gives you 12-24 months to search continuously for jobs (without the worry of regular visa runs), during which you are available to interview for in person. Compared to 3 months for a standard tourists visa, during which time you would be under a lot of pressure to find and sign any contract.
   
2. Familiarize yourself with the city and country; learn where you want to live and thus where you should focus your job search. More realistic way of 'scoping things out' for younger people than a few short term visits (which are probably of equal cost to a year long language program!).
   
3. Improve your language abilities, which may have only marginal benefit for your search, but will enhance your experience in general. Helps avoid the common occurrence of expats that fly in to work, do so for a year, and fly out without any improvement in their Chinese due to a English office and English routine outside of work.
   

Of course these are contingent on having the money to pursue this kind of program without constant financial worries in the background, but I think most people from developed countries are capable of squirreling away enough for a year program if they know how to live spartan enough in their home country.

[jkhsu]

For someone who is mid-career (has some savings and has no family obligations) you could go to China and learn Chinese for two years intensively. After this you can approach smaller Western companies who have a good product and propose that you set up a subsidiary for them in China.

The point of my post is that you don't need to take 2 years off to learn Chinese before you can do what you've just described. I know plenty of people who have set up offices in China or are working in China knowing very little or no Chinese at all. It takes risk and business knowledge/ability to do this, not Chinese language skills. At the same time, I also know people who are fluent in Chinese and English but can't do what you've described.

I agree it is not a very "sensible" thing to do. The opportunity cost is high. You may never earn back what your peers earn (I know I haven't).

The opportunity cost isn't just your earnings, it's the opportunity to do what you want to do while you're stuck in a language school.

I'm not sure if the latter comment was in response to the former (mine), but wanted to clarify my reasoning here.

Yes, it was a response to your comment. I should have probably clarified my statement. You suggestion is certainly an option similar to GaryM's, but it's still language related. I get your point about the longer visa and the ability to search for jobs while I'm there but if jobs were my goal, I'd spend the majority of my day looking for jobs, networking, and doing unpaid positions to gain work experience instead of taking Chinese classes during that time. I'd still learn Chinese though, but in my free time instead.

Improve your language abilities, which may have only marginal benefit for your search, but will enhance your experience in general. Helps avoid the common occurrence of expats that fly in to work, do so for a year, and fly out without any improvement in their Chinese due to a English office and English routine outside of work.

I agree. However, the fact that there are expats who do this means that you don't need to know Chinese to work in China. I want point out that this is an option also!

[icebear]

Ultimately it depends what the person's goal is, or more likely the mix of goals.

If the goal is strictly finding a financially lucrative job, moving to China is almost certainly a bad decision (in expectation). As stated, finding a job with zero Chinese is more that possible, but not optimal for strictly job-seekers.

If the goal is full immersion in language/culture/adventure, enrolling in a degree or non-degree program for several years (if only for visa reasons) is probably a straightforward and rewarding option, assuming no financial constraints or personal obligations elsewhere.

Presumably most people interested in the move have a blend of the two motivations (at least I hope so). Most of my advice is colored by this presumption. Depending on the mix, many might be interested in getting a job as soon as possible in an English speaking environment, which as you've described is quite feasible.

I think for a significant portion of potential movers, however, that approach would leave them unsatisfied. Remember that the opportunity cost of scrambling full time for an immediate job and then working in a primarily English speaking environment with strictly English responsibilities (given not knowing any Chinese when the contract was offered) is that you are spending a majority of your waking time not speaking or learning Chinese. I know some people manage to juggle this with heavy Chinese courses on the side and make impressive gains; I think a more common experience is working full time and making marginal progress in Chinese due to classes being balanced with R&R in their down time. I think the amount of money necessary to enroll in full time courses for even a 3-6 is trivial enough that most considering the move at all should be capable of taking that route before looking for work full-time, and that for many it would leave them more satisfied in the long run.

Again, it depends on what exactly is motivating a move to China, but I'm inclined to think that most would gain a lot personally from devoting a significant amount of time upfront to learning functional Chinese.

[thechamp]

I thought I'd comment on this partly because of the mention of IP/Patent law as a target job search. I did an Eng Lit degree then went to lawschool to take a GDL, writing my dissertation on copyright law. When I got to China I was excited about the idea of learning Chinese and started from day one, whilst interning at a Beijing law firm. After four months of interning and having studied a rudimentary level of Chinese I started applying for jobs paralegaling in IP firms in BJ....and I was actually advised to go and study seriously for a year or two and then maybe try again. The market for foreign educated lawyers is fierce in China, and will go the way of Japan and Korea. One firm responded saying that a fully qualified solicitor (post GDL, LPC, and her training contract at Hogan Lovells) had just accepted a three month internship with the firm, after a year of full time Chinese study. The firm was international but essentially still a boutique IP firm.

I think this info is probably illustrative of a lot of other professions. I met a lot of people in BJ who had done MBAs or Economics and were studying whilst looking for finance or supply management jobs. The problem is is that like everyone's mentioned you're trying to get a job in a country where 500 pounds/dollars/euros per month is considered a good salary, and you don't speak the local language. Most China ex pats who got their jobs without any Chinese usually got their jobs 3 or 4 years ago...i.e before the job market went to mush! Now I think for many technical professions (outside of IT and Engineering) you either need to have very very good Chinese - or just don't bother. Having said that, learning Chinese is incredibly interesting and I'm glad to be doing it....Although I would certainly not advise anyone to do it purely for career purposes. It's probably comparable to getting a humanities PhD. An interesting bauble and proof of dedication - but not really a good business decision!

[dlee85]

I am definitely guilty of wanting to just drop of everything and make the move back to China. It's primarily for adventure/the girl (I think), but my head is telling me to not quit my engineering job to do so. I do want to stay in a fairly lucrative profession (not necessarily engineering) but I would be competing with tens of thousands of Chinese engineers.

I was planning to go down the study Chinese for a year route whilst looking for a job - much like icebear suggested - but not because I think that I would be more employable having Chinese ability, but because it makes sense to be on the ground going to interviews/networking.

jkhsu - thanks for this starting this very informative topic. Originally, I thought opportunities for foreigners were few and far between for those without that decade of experience I so frequently see in job ads.

[jkhsu]

After four months of interning and having studied a rudimentary level of Chinese I started applying for jobs paralegaling in IP firms in BJ....and I was actually advised to go and study seriously for a year or two and then maybe try again.

What level of Chinese were they expecting? Are you supposed to be able to decipher and/or write legal documents in Chinese? When I was looking for jobs I typically ran into two types of language requirements (when there was a requirement):

1. Conversational - Basically, you needed to be able communicate with co-workers so that they don't need to hire a full time assistant just for you. However, you don't have to produce anything written in Chinese or be expected to talk to customers in Chinese.

2. Fluent or Native level

There wasn't really anything in-between. The hiring managers I met were either native English speakers or Chinese who spoke really good English. I guess I wasn't at the "fluent" level to be interviewing for jobs where the hiring manager only spoke to me in Chinese. But then again, I wasn't really interested in those types of jobs anyways.

The other thing I want to point out is that a lot has been mentioned about taking a year or two to learn Chinese full time. Do you realize what level of Chinese you'll attain after that time assuming that you started from scratch? Even if you finished up IUP or ICLP (which will take more than 2 years if you start as a beginner btw), you'd still struggle when competing with natives, especially in speaking and writing. Sure there are exceptions but those people usually make it on TV shows. I am not trying to discourage anyone from learning but just make sure that you allow yourself more time than you think.

[gato]

Are you supposed to be able to decipher and/or write legal documents in Chinese?

There are many mainland Chinese lawyers who have LLMs and even JDs from the US nowadays. NYU, one of the top US law schools, admits about 60-80 mainland students every year for its LLM program. Overall, there are probably more than 500 mainland Chinese students who graduate from US LLM programs every year. Law probably has the highest language requirement of any field. It should just be assumed that for any position lower than partner level, near-native level of Chinese is a must, at least in reading and speaking. Writing requirement is a bit looser, depending on one's area of focus. There are exceptional cases, but one can't really count on them. The only area, I can think of, where a person with less than fluent Chinese skills might still be considered is to do US IPOs for Chinese companies, but that's a shrinking field as more companies choose to IPO in HK, and even there, returnees are gradually taking over.

Btw, there also are good number of HK lawyers working in mainland. Their English, on average, tend to be better than that of the mainland returnees.