Finding work in China w/o knowing Chinese

[icebear]

What level of Chinese were they expecting? Are you supposed to be able to decipher and/or write legal documents in Chinese? When I was looking for jobs I typically ran into two types of language requirements (when there was a requirement):

1. Conversational - Basically, you needed to be able communicate with co-workers so that they don't need to hire a full time assistant just for you. However, you don't have to produce anything written in Chinese or be expected to talk to customers in Chinese.

I think the emphasis in #18 should be placed on rudimentary, which realistically is the level of Chinese one might expect during 4 months primarily focused on working a competitive internship (long hours, in English). I think a comfortable level of basic conversational Chinese is feasible in a similar (or slightly longer) time frame, but with more intensive study, not just a spare 30 minutes after or before work. Of course that depends on your (and your employer's!) definition of conversational/functional, which is probably not a good direction to take this post.

I think most have agreed/conceded that it is possible to find gainful employment in China without any knowledge of Chinese. Some of us additionally think that its preferable to engage in intensive language courses at the outset (say for 3-12 months) to both marginally expand job options as well as improve the overall experience of living in China.

[jkhsu]

大肚男 writes:

If I ever make it to China to work, it would probably be in a law firm specializing in patent or IP law, so I think my current level should be good enough

thechamp writes:

After four months of interning and having studied a rudimentary level of Chinese I started applying for jobs paralegaling in IP firms in BJ....and I was actually advised to go and study seriously for a year or two and then maybe try again.

gato writes:

Law probably has the highest language requirement of any field. It should just be assumed that for any position lower than partner level, near-native level of Chinese is a must, at least in reading and speaking.

So how much Chinese do you really need to know to get into a law career in China? I know that you have to be native or fluent to practice Chinese law but what about International law? I always thought that if you had a law degree from the West with International experience, there were opportunities in China that do not require you have fluent Chinese?

Some of us additionally think that its preferable to engage in intensive language courses at the outset (say for 3-12 months) to both marginally expand job options as well as improve the overall experience of living in China.

I actually agree with most of your comments as I also took the equivalent of 2 years of college level Chinese before heading to China myself. However, I noticed my Chinese was more useful for basic communication and getting around rather than for actual work. From my experience, I found that when Chinese was required for work, it usually meant at the fluent level. I know that you've been advocating learning Chinese to improve your chances of finding a job and better compete with other applicants who are also learning Chinese. However, can you provide some examples of where an employer would pay you for knowing Chinese but not at the fluent level?

Edit: I know there are job listings that require various levels of Chinese in my initial post but I'm looking for specific examples of how an employer would have you use non-fluent Chinese and pay you for it?

I am definitely guilty of wanting to just drop of everything and make the move back to China. It's primarily for adventure/the girl (I think), but my head is telling me to not quit my engineering job to do so.

I'm glad that this thread is helpful for you. You might actually want to post a separate topic and get others' opinions. Just from reading about your situation, my suggestion is to see if a company in the US has offices in China and/or is willing to send you out there. Don't expect an expat package. These days, I think you'd hit the jackpot if they'll just pay you US salary to go out there. But even if you have to take a pay cut, it's going to be better than dropping everything and moving to China. You might also want to get in touch with VCs who who invest in startups in China. I'm sure they would be interested in your experience from the US. I know this advice is sort of contrary to what I've been saying about just going to China and looking for jobs there. However, salary was not part of this topic. If you have a girlfriend there, it most likely means you need disposable income. If you don't get a good paying job, you'll may get a lot of pressure from her parents, etc. That's not a fun situation to be in when you're in China.

[icebear]

From my experience, I found that when Chinese was required for work, it usually meant at the fluent level. I know that you've been advocating learning Chinese to improve your chances of finding a job and better compete with other applicants who are also learning Chinese. However, can you provide some examples of where an employer would pay you for knowing Chinese but not at the fluent level?

No. But this isn't the question I'm trying to answer (but perhaps I'm answering the wrong one too!). I think your question is whether marginally more Chinese at any level below fluent will increase a person's wage; I think that is generally a no. My question is whether marginally more Chinese at any level below fluent will increase a person's probability of being hired; I think the answer to that is yes. I'll give two examples I know about:

1. A Chinese branch of a consulting firm is hiring interns. The foreign staff in the office work entirely in English - English language sources for research, English based meetings or phone calls, and English language reports. Some administrative/accounting staff are Chinese and speak limited English. Two potential interns are being interviewed, aren't readily distinguishable from each other regarding their professional skills. One speaks essentially zero Chinese and the other has a basic level. The basic level one is hired because there is the expectation he will require less babysitting when interacting with Chinese-only administrative staff (e.g. if he needs to make orders by phone, print-jobs, etc).
   
2. A foreign fund is hiring someone to be based in and travel around China to conduct due-diligence on a wide variety of investment projects. Applications are only taken from those already residing in China. Basic/conversational Chinese is required to facilitate 白酒 swilling and laughs with regional partners after inspections take place, or more innocently to make arrangements for travel and lodging (new branch in China, small office, limited secretarial support). Chinese is not required for the actual professional obligations of the job (i.e. the technical reasons for being hired), but no one with non-functional Chinese is considered for the position because that would mean budgeting a translator in all trips in addition to the technical staff needed (the foreign inspector and a Chinese engineer relevant to the project at hand). To highlight the point that basic Chinese was needed: the person hired had decent (but certainly not fluent Chinese), and a portion of the interview was conducted in Chinese.
   

Agreed that dlee85 probably needs to provide more detail (in a new post) for better advice; a lot depends on his personal expectations, current point in his career, etc etc etc.

My strong advice to study upfront also stems from the following: In general I find that a lot of acquaintances in my home country wax poetic about how great it would be to drop everything and move to China (mid/long term - not considering the 1 year adventurers), but ultimately those that do it either have an incredibly strong interest in China/Chinese (enough to compensate for the career risk) or have generally very limited options back home (and see China as a Big Easy escape). Just my personal observation. Given such a strong interest in Chinese, it's crucial to keep in mind that while working full time in English it's much easier to maintain a good level of Chinese than it is to improve from zero to a good level of Chinese (see elsewhere on this forum for that discussion). This has serious implications on someone's level of satisfaction with their time in China after the buzz of the initial move has worn off and they actually have to live there and reconcile the passions that motivated the move.

[jkhsu]

Great post icebear, I am sure it'll be very helpful for many people.

[thechamp]

Hi Jkhsu,

I would say that now (right now) in mainland China you need to be completely fluent in Chinese to get into a law firm. Aside from the lawyer I mentioned (an associate) was probably not fluent in Chinese, but had moved out before it became more difficult to get into Western firms, and before the economy went to mush and UK commercial firms (don't know about US) are often posting Newly Qualified recruitment rates of 20-50%. Mate, a hell of a lot of well qualified lawyers are going to China right now. I know two (one in shipping one in finance law) who recently moved to HK, and said that if they'd done it even 1 year later they'd have had no chance. I don't know if your question about practicing law in China was because you want to practice law or because you want to practice in China, but you need to be good at Chinese.

Also, when you say international law, could you be more specific? Although, I think that any area you might suggest that has an international element will still require a very very high level of Chinese for a foreigner to be hired over a returnee. Basically, ask yourself whether that would sound sensible when there are a lot of Chinese with foreign legal educations....and are actually native Chinese speakers. The partner looking after me whilst interning had done an LLM at Chicago, which is a pretty good school.

I was actually advised by a BJ lawyer that there are better opportunities for foreign educated lawyers in Indonesia and Vietnam. The thing is, for me, it wasn't about getting away from the UK and getting a job, it was about learning Chinese and keeping my CV 'warm'.

You'll find that Chinese skills might be more valuable at home than in China eg immigration law and shipping.

Sorry if this skuppers any plans to practice law in China, but seriously you're going to need to get good enough to study law in Chinese. Not impossible but a big investment.

[大肚男]

Apparently things changed from 2 years ago. Which figures, given the state of the world economy.

I based my goals on conversation with couple of ex-pat lawyers who moved to China right after passing the bar, and found jobs in big firms that had lots of clients that transact in the US.

They were hired as "consultants", even with their basic Chinese skills, and were compensated well. But I guess the market has changed, as more and more qualified American who can't find jobs stateside move to China in search of the promised land.

[thechamp]

Hi 大肚男

Yeah, basically....yeah. However I need to make the distinction that a UK GDL is not the same as a US JD which is a far more advanced qualification. A GDL is a very difficult set of exams that most fail first time, but it is still academic law. My understanding is that a JD is like our GDL, LPC, and BVHC put together i.e academic law, practicing within a firm regards paperwork etc, and also advocacy.

I've actually met a girl with a JD who went to work in house at a mining company in inner mongolia. I think that just needs a short pause to appreciate.....

BTW this girl was not interested in Mongolian culture or language. Although, to be fair she wasn't hugely bright either, and had no interest in Chinese. My point is that a JD is not going to get you a job as a legal consultant at an big name firm. A lot of UK firms are now sending their NQs to Beijing and HK because there just isn't the work in London. These guys know the firm and they're 'in' already.

Best of luck re: in China legal applications, but my understanding is that it's better to do the early years of your training at home (perhaps with another language) and then get transferred to your desired destination.

That Gato guy probably would give similar advice

[jkhsu]

I don't know if your question about practicing law in China was because you want to practice law or because you want to practice in China, but you need to be good at Chinese.

Neither. But careers in China or involving China is an interest for me and is a topic that I often discuss among friends / colleagues. I had thought that with the trend of Chinese companies going global, International business law was an area that would be accessible for those with Western law degrees and experience. However, I see your point that it's difficult to compete with returnees if you have similar education and work experience, but lack the necessary language skills.

I just saw 大肚男's post come in as I was writing this and what he said is somewhat similar to what I was thinking of. Basically, the type of work would be similar to how an in-house general counsel would hire other law firms to do specific work such as file patents. So basically, you would be the liaison for the Chinese company working with US law firms (assuming the company is doing / or wants to do business in the US). If you're senior enough, I guess you could hire a returnee who would prefer to interface with the Chinese side of the business and help you with translating.

Another idea is to be the liaison for a US company where you hire returnees to work on the Chinese side of the business. These are all hypothetical examples but I guess you have to get creative to find that niche.

Overall, a very informative post. Based on yours and gato's posts, I'll make sure I tell aspiring lawyers who want to practice in China to seriously study Chinese in college (or earlier).

[thechamp]

I think the misunderstanding is that there is no such thing as 'international business law'

[GaryM]

Another idea is to be the liaison for a US company where you hire returnees to work on the Chinese side of the business. These are all hypothetical examples but I guess you have to get creative to find that niche.

This is certainly possible. A friend of mine has done exactly this. He was working for a US software firm in New York as their Legal Council and suggested that he set up an office for them in Shanghai. It took some persuading, initially working two jobs and agreeing to go on a trial basis. The first thing that he did was hire a couple of returnees (he doesn't speak chinese, but his japanese is reasonably fluent). In my case I will be joining a foreign firm with an established presence (employing english speaking staff). Again I speak no Chinese at the moment but my background in Japan certainly helped me to get the job.

For people with extensive work experience, working for foreign companies in China appears to be the easiest route. I know a lot of the big foreign corporations are already established, but if mine and my friends experience is anything to go by, small and medium sized firms will still consider hiring foreigners who don't speak Chinese. As you say, you have to get creative.

[jkhsu]

In my case I will be joining a foreign firm with an established presence (employing english speaking staff). Again I speak no Chinese at the moment but my background in Japan certainly helped me to get the job.

Do you have tips on where / and how to look for these types of opportunities at smaller / medium sized companies? This could be helpful for others in a similar position to find their way into China.

[GaryM]

"Do you have tips on where / and how to look for these types of opportunities at smaller / medium sized companies?"

In the case of the job in China I actually was invited by an old university friend, so that is not particularly useful. A better example is when I got the a job as country manager in Japan. I targeted a start-up company that I knew that had a really impressive product. I wrote a business plan for the company, completely unsolicited and sent it to them. I got the usual response of "thank you for your interest, we will keep your details on file". A year later I contacted them again and by coincidence one of their sales staff was coming to Japan for a trade conference. We ended up meeting up for what was to be a short chat but ended up lasting quite a while longer. I think the fact that I was really passionate about their product helped. I was then invited to the company for a few days for series of interviews, where I was asked to do a presentation on developing their market. I think they quite cynically used me as an unpaid consultant for a few months before they finally offered me the job. However, I ended up with the result that I wanted so I have no complaints about that.

It was rather unconventional. The key thing was persistence without being pushy and really having a view on how they could sell their product in Japan. The company only had about 50 employees when I joined, but has since been bought out by Intel. The business plan that I wrote was fairly standard, but quite comprehensive in outlining a number of different sales strategies they could take. You don't really know in advance what their preferred option is, so it was useful to consder the pros and cons of each strategy. In the end I was lucky to get the job, but it shows what can be done with a bit of luck and persistence.

I am sure something similar could be done with regards small companies looking to develop sales in China. Once you have this kind of experience under your belt it is easier to find other opportunities. The opportunity in China arose mainly because I had this experience, even though I can't speak chinese.

[gato]

International business law was an area that would be accessible for those with Western law degrees and experience. However, I see your point that it's difficult to compete with returnees if you have similar education and work experience, but lack the necessary language skills.

The legal market in mainland China is becoming like Japan's. Local lawyers are gaining most of the market share, and foreign lawyers will have to focus on niche areas like international IPOs and debt offerings, where a higher level of English is needed for drafting documents for investors. IPO is a feast-or-famine type of work and rises and falls with the stock market, so 2010 and 2011 were hot years, with lots of hirings, particularly firms were short-staffed after massive layoffs in 2009. But the market fell off the cliff in the second half of last year, with the euro crisis and the cooling of the Chinese real estate market. The market is recovering a bit this year, but is still very uncertain.

HK will have more opportunity for lawyers who work mostly in English, as English remains the main language for law in HK and HK lawyers take part in more transactions all across Asia.

[jkhsu]

@GaryM: I think the info in your post #32 is gold. This is exactly the type of "out of the box" thinking that someone should be doing to make their way into China (or anywhere for that matter).

@gato: Thanks for verifying the difficulty of landing a position in China's legal market.

[13cyberphoenix]

So if one is looking for technical (such as engineering or IT) jobs but has less than 2 years work experience and speaks no Mandarin, then it's still worth the risk to just go for it and show up in China, send resumes to recruiters and try to network one's way into a job (and maybe enroll in a Chinese course just to get a visa and learn Chinese for fun) and hope to be lucky enough to even get an unpaid/volunteer position?

[Angelina]

Cyberphoenix, my Chinese ex works in IT. He speaks fluent Mandarin, Cantonese and Teochew, plus conversational English. He got his first job at a major company when he was 22, right after he graduated. He has extensive experience. Why would any employer hire you over him? He can speak English.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go to China, but you should definitely be more realistic about what your options are.

[MichaelJames]

This is a very interesting thread for me. Thanks for all of the content. I have been reading these forums for a while and keep getting drawn back to this site.

 

I too am on the verge of making a brave/stupid decision... after seven years of working in England (so I am approaching 30), to drop everything mid-career and spend 6 months in China intensively (full-time) studying Mandarin. Feel free to critique or add to this list, maybe someone can dissuade me and thus save me large amounts of time and money:

 

Pros:

• Long-held desire to work and live in HK/PRC/SG (assuming that gaining fluency will help with respect to that goal).
• I enjoy learning Mandarin.
• My savings are sufficient to support me for as long as I require, without any need for income.
• I have no particular obligations or reasons to stay in my current location.
• Desire to take time out, experience another culture and broaden my life's experiences.

Cons:

• The possibility that Mandarin won't even help me to get my dream job.
• Risk of difficulty getting back into my industry after a 6 month+ break.
• Opportunity cost of not saving any money and instead burning savings for 6 months.
• Risk of not actually having a good time, becoming disillusioned, etc.

 It feels like the next few months are final decision time.

 

Honestly it feels more like a stupid than a brave decision to do this. But hard to resist

[roddy]

Fluency will help, but it's unlikely to make the unemployable employable. So yes, it may help, but it's more likely to be a preferable extra than an essential - especially in Hong Kong and Singapore. What actual field are you looking at? 

[MichaelJames]

Hi Roddy!

 

Wouldn't you agree that things have changed overseas... according to this article (which is nearly two years old, and my perception is that the trends it describes have continued in the same direction since then), 80% of HK jobs require Mandarin or Cantonese, and 60% of SG jobs require Mandarin. In China, the percentage would be higher again...

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/23/business/global/for-westerners-in-asia-the-job-market-grows-tougher.html

[roddy]

Yeah, it's maybe more essential than I think.