Chemical Engineer Relocating to China

[dlee85]

A couple of members (jkhsu and icebear) suggested I make a dedicated post to seek advice about trying to make the move back to China.

I'm British Chinese (born to Vietnamese Chinese parents - the boat people in the 1970s) and graduated in 2009 with a 4 year chemical engineering degree. A 4 year engineering degree in the UK is a Masters of Engineering. I had to write a dissertation in my final year but whether or not my degree is recognised as a masters in the rest of the world is debatable. I understand that Americans have to study at least 2 more years after their bachelor degrees to gain their masters.

After I graduated, I moved to Chengdu and worked as a chemistry teacher (on a business visa). Absolutely fell in love with the place. I left China in October 2010, with the intention of going back after getting a couple of years work experience so I could qualify for a legitimate work visa. Found a job in March 2011 at a small engineering company just outside my home town and have been working there since. My company only has an office in the UK, but we do a lot of work for multinationals, including some work in China. Unfortunately, it's not the kind of work that warrants a permanent posting in China.

My job title is Process Engineer but it is a graduate role so they have me doing a bit of everything from project management to design/sizing work. For those that don't know, design in my field of engineering can be carried out purely using a spreadsheet - which is what I'm doing at the moment. I don't know how to program and AutoCad drawings (I guess most people would actually see this as design work) are carried out exclusively by our drawing office. The reason I mention that I can't program or know how to use AutoCad is because I know software engineering has blown up these past few years and I think I read that China is lacking programmers.

I am managing my own project (under a lot of guidance), which I designed and sold (again, under a lot of guidance). But I'm guessing that this may not stand for a lot in terms of decent experience.

I had decided that I would make the move back to learn Chinese full time in March 2013 - because it coincides nicely with the start of a new semester and me having two years of work experience. The plan was to study Chinese whilst looking for work. But after seeing jkhsu's thread on finding work without knowing Chinese, I think I should at least try to find employment before quitting my job to study. After all, the end goal is to work in China

I would consider putting it off a few years but my girlfriend is Chinese. We met at university in the UK. We're not on good terms at the moment so I need to make the move back there just in case she is the one.

In terms of salary - I'm not after an expat package - flights home, housing allowance etc, but I would really like to earn what I earn now after tax i.e. 16,000 - 18,000 rmb per month. I am willing to take a pay cut provided there was opportunity for good experience and growth. I would also be willing to move to another field.

Hopefully, I'm not asking for the world. I really want to make a successful move back there. If anyone can offer some advice about my situation or just how I should be spending the next year really making myself stand out from the crowd it would be much appreciated. I can provide more details if needed.

[roddy]

There must be specialist forums for people in your field - get networking with people doing the jobs you want to be doing. Jump on to chemicalengineersforums.com or whatever and stick up a post saying 'anyone worked in China'. What big firms in your sector have joint ventures in China? What companies have plants near wherever you want to live in China? Etc, etc.

[icebear]

In terms of salary - I'm not after an expat package - flights home, housing allowance etc, but I would really like to earn what I earn now after tax i.e. 16,000 - 18,000 rmb per month. I am willing to take a pay cut provided there was opportunity for good experience and growth. I would also be willing to move to another field.

I'm not familiar with the chemical engineers market in China, but I don't think your salary expectations are wildly unrealistic. Perhaps you would need to accept an initial cut, but for comparison I knew a inexperienced German working for a large multinational machinery company (his studies were in something like mechanical engineering) who was making around 2300 euro per month after tax, which is slightly more than what you've stated. Perhaps there are big disparities across types of engineering in China, I don't know. My general impression is that engineers have the best packages and worst locations.

I second roddy that your best bet is probably posting in forums specific to your industry, as well as doing searches for chemicals firms from the EU that operate in China.

I would consider putting it off a few years but my girlfriend is Chinese. We met at university in the UK. We're not on good terms at the moment so I need to make the move back there just in case she is the one.

I suggest making a plan that you'll be happy with regardless of how things shake out with your girlfriend. I understand you want to be with her, but don't put yourself in a bad situation solely for something that may be transitory (put yourself in a great situation no matter how it works out!). I understand this is pretty skeptical; other views may differ.

[dlee85]

I had originally asked a Chinese course mate of mine. He worked for a large Chinese engineering company. It may have been Sinopec. He straight up said if I can't speak Chinese then I can't find work in China. But this guy is a pure academic and without wanting to sound insulting, very 'Chinese' in his way of thinking.

roddy, I thought I would ask on here first. I like this forum, the posters on here offer non judgemental advice and seem very opening to new comers.

[icebear]

I had originally asked a Chinese course mate of mine. He worked for a large Chinese engineering company. It may have been Sinopec. He straight up said if I can't speak Chinese then I can't find work in China. But this guy is a pure academic and without wanting to sound insulting, very 'Chinese' in his way of thinking.

I think you'd be better off getting the advice of a foreigner working in your sector in China; they would have a better idea of the conditions and expectations than someone working in a large state-owned company (which may indeed have no foreigners working in it for other reasons).

One thing you may try is looking up industries on LinkedIn and then trying to find offices/workers in China with western sounding names; then just send them a message asking for general advice. I've been solicited like this once or twice in the past by fresh graduates (regarding working in the institution I was in, not in China) and I offered a frank view of the possibilities/difficulties...

[roddy]

roddy, I thought I would ask on here first. I like this forum, the posters on here offer non judgemental advice and seem very opening to new comers.

Fair enough. But that's not how you spell judgmental, ya noob ;-)

[dlee85]

I suggest making a plan that you'll be happy with regardless of how things shake out with your girlfriend. I understand you want to be with her, but don't put yourself in a bad situation solely for something that may be transitory (put yourself in a great situation no matter how it works out!). I understand this is pretty skeptical; other views may differ.

I've had many restless nights trying to figure this one out!

Fair enough. But that's not how you spell judgmental, ya noob ;-)

In that case, I think your spell check is broken!

[roddy]

It red-underlined your version. So you're wrong. Ha. But anyway.

Some other ideas - Chambers of Commerce. Industry Associations. Consultancies / Industry Newsletters. Equipment suppliers. Chinese industry portals ( chem.cn, for example ). Industry specific recruiters - do they ever get asked to recruit people for China?

[dlee85]

I will continue trying to network. I've joined my uni alumni. I didn't think to send messages to people on LinkedIn - looks like this is my next course of action.

At first, my plan was to study Chinese whilst trying to find part time intern work at a multinational. I thought this would allow me to keep my CV up to date and perhaps pave the road to finding something more permanent. I should be able to do this for a year or so before money gets tight. Any merit in doing this, career wise? Is this even possible in China? I guess this is my back up plan if I can't find anything before next year.

Some other ideas - Chambers of Commerce. Industry Associations. Consultancies / Industry Newsletters. Equipment suppliers. Chinese industry portals ( chem.cn, for example ). Industry specific recruiters - do they ever get asked to recruit people for China?

Looks like I have some serious networking to do.

[xiaoxiaocao]

If your skills would allow you to cross over into the mining/minerals industry in some capacity it could be an avenue to explore.

[jkhsu]

Great to see your post.

Some questions:

- What level of Chinese are you at? Have you taken any formal classes?

- What city are you planning to move to? Chengdu?

[GaryM]

(1) Transferable skills, (2) Language skills, (3) Flexible salary requirements, (4) Flexible location, (5) Work experience. As a rule of thumb, the more of these that you can tick the better your chances are. You may have to compromise a little to get what you want. One of the problems with chemical industry is that it is capital intensive so it is dominated by large firms. Smaller firms tend to be a little more entrepeneurial and more open to unconventional approaches. If you are still relatively young in your career, I would have thought it is not a bad idea to invest in yourself. Typically this costs, either in accepting a lower salary in returning for learning new skillls, additional study after work, or saving money taking some time off and learning something new. Personally, if you have a decent job and you have potentially found "the one", I would marry her and keep the job in the UK. Sounds like a good option to me!

[dlee85]

If your skills would allow you to cross over into the mining/minerals industry in some capacity it could be an avenue to explore.

They would. I had looked into a mineral mining job in Africa. But it was in an incredibly isolated place. I expect it would be the same in China.

- What level of Chinese are you at? Have you taken any formal classes?

- What city are you planning to move to? Chengdu?

I only self study. I passed HSK3 last December. But really, I can only get around with my Mandarin. I'm hoping to take HSK4 in May - but I'll know in a month if I'm ready or not. Perhaps in a year I'll improve significantly but that remains to be seen.

It doesn't have to be Chengdu. My girlfriend is in Xiamen. Ideally, it would be the same city as her. But any city with an airport, I would consider. Major cities would be a bonus. I'm heading to Beijing for a few days in June, as this was the city I was going to study Chinese in.

(1) Transferable skills, (2) Language skills, (3) Flexible salary requirements, (4) Flexible location, (5) Work experience. As a rule of thumb, the more of these that you can tick the better your chances are. You may have to compromise a little to get what you want. One of the problems with chemical industry is that it is capital intensive so it is dominated by large firms. Smaller firms tend to be a little more entrepeneurial and more open to unconventional approaches. If you are still relatively young in your career, I would have thought it is not a bad idea to invest in yourself. Typically this costs, either in accepting a lower salary in returning for learning new skillls, additional study after work, or saving money taking some time off and learning something new. Personally, if you have a decent job and you have potentially found "the one", I would marry her and keep the job in the UK. Sounds like a good option to me!

As far as transferable skills go, I can see myself working in some sort of procurement/project management role in a much larger firm but is two years experience enough? I don't know. 16-18k would be brilliant, but I could go as low as 7-8k for the right position. But I haven't begun to really look yet, so who knows? I don't have the language skills but I am learning.

I had thought about study after work - what skills are needed in China now?

She makes more money than I do, so if anybody should make the move than I feel it should be me. She brought up the topic of marriage many times, but I always fob her off hence the bad blood between us now so it really is up to me to make it work. I was given no pressure at all from her family to have a well paid job, I think they saw how happy she was and that was enough for them. It's strange, but sometimes I think that overseas Chinese are more 'Chinese' than mainlanders i.e. pursuit of career/money/status etc.

[jkhsu]

I had decided that I would make the move back to learn Chinese full time in March 2013 - because it coincides nicely with the start of a new semester and me having two years of work experience. The plan was to study Chinese whilst looking for work. But after seeing jkhsu's thread on finding work without knowing Chinese, I think I should at least try to find employment before quitting my job to study. After all, the end goal is to work in China

I didn't see a response to my question about your current level of Chinese so I'll go ahead and explain why I asked. Edit: Sorry, just saw your answer but I'm leaving the language advice anyway for others in a similar situation.

If you have had no previous exposure to Chinese at all (which I don't think is the case from your posting), then I would highly suggest that you take some classes, hire a tutor, or at least learn on your own prior to heading to China. Ideally, you should get past the basic "survival" Chinese level. Again, if you're a complete beginner, perhaps a 3 month intensive course in China will be helpful. More than that and your rate of return starts to diminish (assuming looking for a job is your priority). Afterwards, your focus should be on looking for a job, starting a business, or even just plain networking so that you can increase your chances of getting a job / making a living in China. I've mentioned this before in my other post but I would choose an unpaid position that either gets me in the door of a company or provides me relevant experience / networks anyday over learning Chinese full time. Again, you can always learn Chinese on the evenings / weekends.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big advocate for learning Chinese and getting your Chinese as fluent as possible, but I'm also pretty practical as well. Learning Chinese takes time in units of "years". You can also never predict what may happen to you during those "years" of learning Chinese. Most likely, it'll take longer than you think. Many of the expats in China that I know are learning Chinese on the side (which does take longer than full time study) but they've got time because they're working and making good money.

Now, there is a situation where I might suggest learning Chinese full time. If you are already in the upper intermediate / advanced level (2 or more years of college level Chinese) and you can get into a program like IUP (in Tsinghua, Beijing), ICLP (in NTU, Taipei), or a similar program where you'll come out with functional Chinese at the professional level, then go for it. It's probably worth a year or more of your time to do this.

If anyone can offer some advice about my situation or just how I should be spending the next year really making myself stand out from the crowd it would be much appreciated.

First, you need to network like crazy and get a lot of advice from those who have done what you're looking to do. You might want to consider taking some short trips to China early just to network. Set up all of your meetings as if you're going there on a business trip with the goal of coming back with a more informative plan. Second, get creative about what you can do but also never forget that you have experience growing up in the UK that a returnee doesn't have. Create a niche for yourself and figure out what you can offer that is unique. Don't get caught up on trying to compete based on Chinese language abilities; you'll never win that way.

Personally, if you have a decent job and you have potentially found "the one", I would marry her and keep the job in the UK. Sounds like a good option to me!

This is a good point from GaryM. It may take a while to get established in China and there is certainly a risk that it might not happen. Is she willing to support you while you're out there looking for a job? This can all get very complicated. Many expats who have great jobs / packages end up moving back to their home countries after a few years. It's hard for anyone (a non-Chinese citizen) to predict if they can remain in China for the long term.

[GaryM]

From wikipedia it looks as if there are some chemical engineering companies in Xiamen. Why not do some research on the companies that are based there? Find if there is any over-lap with the work that your company in the UK does. If there is, write a detailed report for your company, explain your personal circumstances and tell them that you will work for them for free out there until you have proved yourself. I agree with jkhsu on this, you don't always have to assume that Chinese language studies are going to give you the best opportunities. If your girlfriend is happy to support you (which she should be if you are doing this for her), you could try and develop some sales for your UK firm whilst you improve your language skills. This also gives you the chance to network (if it does not work out with the UK firm) and does not leave a hole in your CV. My guess is that if you show that them that you have done your homework and you are motivated, they would not expect you to work for free. It is worth a try. You are still young, you can afford to take some risks. That would be my Plan "A". Being 800 miles away from someone in China is not that much easier than being 8,000 miles away from someone back in the UK, so Xiamen should really be your priority I would have thought.

[gato]

What does your girlfriend think about your moving to China? Have you talked about her possibly returning to the UK? I wouldn't discount that possibility unless she has refused it.

If your goal is making the relationship work and then marriage, I think career is an important factor. Even though her family hasn't pressured you on it, it's possible that they just haven't showed it (or your language skills are not at a point that you can detect it.). Career and money are still top consideration when it comes to marriage. Your girlfriend herself might feel that social pressure more as she gets older (I assume you are both around 24-25). Generally speaking, for China at least, I think there will be a trouble if a guy makes significantly less money than the girl in a relationship. It's often common that the guy would be expected to buy a house for the family before a couple gets married. That's actually one reason people blame for the high price of housing. It falls under the category of "hard demand".

Btw, your girlfriend making more than RMB 20K per month makes her a very high earner in Xiamen (since you say she makes more than you).

[GaryM]

A friend of mine had an attractive girlfriend with a good salary. She offered to pay for him to study Chinese full time whilst she supported him. Maybe that is why it doesn't sound so unusual to me. Chinese girls are often depicted as financially motivated, which is a little unfair I feel.

[imron]

She offered to pay for him to study Chinese full time whilst she supported him

That sounds pretty unusual to me.

[dlee85]

I didn't see a response to my question about your current level of Chinese so I'll go ahead and explain why I asked. Edit: Sorry, just saw your answer but I'm leaving the language advice anyway for others in a similar situation.

No problem. Sorry I couldn't reply sooner, I couldn't get online until after work. I was going to join a language course with as few hours as possible and intern the rest of the time. This is is plan C for now.

First, you need to network like crazy and get a lot of advice from those who have done what you're looking to do. You might want to consider taking some short trips to China early just to network. Set up all of your meetings as if you're going there on a business trip with the goal of coming back with a more informative plan. Second, get creative about what you can do but also never forget that you have experience growing up in the UK that a returnee doesn't have. Create a niche for yourself and figure out what you can offer that is unique. Don't get caught up on trying to compete based on Chinese language abilities; you'll never win that way.

Recurring theme here. It really does look like networking is the best way forward. I've never been creative enough with my job search. I was looking for work in China before I came back to the UK - in hind sight only responding to job ads is probably not enough.

Find if there is any over-lap with the work that your company in the UK does. If there is, write a detailed report for your company, explain your personal circumstances and tell them that you will work for them for free out there until you have proved yourself.

It just so happens today my boss said I need to think a bit more outside the box to get sales in China. Could be an opportunity there. I just wish he hadn't mentioned it in the toilet.

What does your girlfriend think about your moving to China? Have you talked about her possibly returning to the UK? I wouldn't discount that possibility unless she has refused it.

We're both 26. Returning to China was always the plan. I wanted to get some decent experience in the UK to make myself more employable in China.

She would return to the UK if I had married her. I'm making excuses, but when you're fairly fresh out of education and embarking on the journey that is real life, you don't want to think about getting married.

Thanks all. I have a better idea about how to approach this.

[gato]

Chinese girls are often depicted as financially motivated, which is a little unfair I feel.

It's not necessarily the girls themselves, but the whole culture and their families. People also care a lot about keeping up with their peers.