Pinyin, Pronunciation and Potential Problems

[skylee]

There is little doubt about the second point. More knowledge is usually good.

But about the "quirks" of pinyin, I learnt them in the first lessons of elementary Putonghua. The conventions were very clearly set out in my textbook (and in the official 漢語拼音方案), and the Putonghua teacher explained them. I can't comment on whether or not these "quirks" are unnecessary (though I wouldn't want to write two more dots when there is not going to be confusion). But Any good students should have learnt the conventions at the beginning, and good teachers should have taught their students. I don't think the rules are hard for beginners, but perhaps they are for some westerners.

[yialanliu]

France, UK/US, China, Germany, Spain/Mexico and many other countries should goto war since all of their written languages look too similar and it confuses readers of other countries...

Not sure why we should say China is the oddball and change.

Why is english tion(pronunciation) pronounced shun and sion(admission) pronounced the same? Why is too/two/to all the same? Doesn't make sense from a pronunciation point of view. If it's the same, it should be the same right?

Lastly, just because something is better doesn't mean it's good to switch. There's a cost of a switch (relearning another set, redoing databases/archives, reteaching teachers). Is pinyin something so horrible that it needs to be switched even at such a high cost?

My point is every language has its quirks and having quirks doesn't make it horrible and something that should be changed.

Lastly, my last gripe:

2) Learning more than one system is quite useful, because it allows new angles of approach to pronunciation

Pronunciation is only a problem for foreigners learning a new language...

I know plenty of people all over the world who can't read but can speak accurately. Your bad pronunciation has nothing to do with pinyin, it's just you weren't trained to speak like that.

Why should the Chinese change something that will affect 1.3 billion people for a very small minority who are having problems (the minority of foreigners who can't learn pinyin)

[Mactuary]

Not sure why we should say China is the oddball and change.

1. I guess you can be forgiven for saying that if you've just recently joined the conversation, but just to let you know that I mentioned it at the very beginning. There are similar problems with other languages but I want to focus on Chinese and Pinyin because this is a Chinese Forum. Examples using other languages are welcomed as long as they're not to the tune of "French, German, Spanish etc also have similar problems so Chinese learners should just shut up."

2. I've also mentioned that the Romance languages and friends are of the same family hence share the same history. With Chinese there was a chance (there still is) to develop a completely new system.

3. Pronunciation wise, I also disagree with text first exposure for beginners, it confuses the hell out of them.

4. I don't really care about how many people do not have problems learning/pronouncing these foreign languages. I've heard unnecessarily "bad" pronunciation enough times from enough people to convince myself that it's not just due to the nature of people's learning/listening skill limit but also due to the education system, the predominant pronunciation systems e.g. pinyin or other transliteration standards.

5. Just because English spelling is a mess, doesn't mean other systems can't/shouldn't be better.

I know plenty of people all over the world who can't read but can speak accurately

Yes, I share the same view. I think most language education should start with listening rather than reading. Hence,

There's a cost of a switch

I wouldn't cost much to refrain for a few weeks from introducing pinyin to completely new learners. After they understand all the sounds then they can be shown the standard symbols used to visually represent the sounds that they've just mastered. Then pinyin wouldn't need to be changed at all.

Is pinyin something so horrible that it needs to be switched even at such a high cost?

From what I've heard, yes! (for some people) At least for that person, to fix her pronunciation would cost her a lot of money and time. Though I just want to change the non voiced consonants and the "i" that doesn't sound like "ee", everything else is fine.

Why should the Chinese change something that will affect 1.3 billion people for a very small minority who are having problems

I think Pinyin affects the way Chinese people pronounce Engilsh sounds too.

[feng]

Why should the Chinese change something that will affect 1.3 billion people for a very small minority who are having problems (the minority of foreigners who can't learn pinyin)

I don't think anyone whom has participated in this thread (except maybe) @Mactuary has suggested that either China or Taiwan switch to an alternative system.

[Olle Linge]

But about the "quirks" of pinyin, I learnt them in the first lessons of elementary Putonghua. The conventions were very clearly set out in my textbook (and in the official 漢語拼音方案), and the Putonghua teacher explained them. [...] But Any good students should have learnt the conventions at the beginning, and good teachers should have taught their students. I don't think the rules are hard for beginners, but perhaps they are for some westerners.

I don't think we will get much further than this. What you say here does not reflect my experience either as a student observing other students or as a teacher. You describe an ideal situation that isn't, at least in my experience with adult foreign learners, very common. Because of this, it's only natural that we reach different conclusions.

Pronunciation is only a problem for foreigners learning a new language...

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about native speakers learning their own language. Saying "only" here strikes me as odd, though, since we are, after all, discussing this on a forum mostly frequented by people who study Chinese as a foreign language.

I know plenty of people all over the world who can't read but can speak accurately. Your bad pronunciation has nothing to do with pinyin, it's just you weren't trained to speak like that.

Why should the Chinese change something that will affect 1.3 billion people for a very small minority who are having problems (the minority of foreigners who can't learn pinyin)

I have no idea why you bring this up. It's completely irrelevant and I'm not suggesting anyone should change (which I pointed out in my post) and I don't think anyone else is either.

[skylee]

You describe an ideal situation that isn't, at least in my experience with adult foreign learners, very common. Because of this, it's only natural that we reach different conclusions.

This makes sense. CUHK is a good university, this I am quite sure.

[OneEye]

Again, give me any student with bad pronunciation in English and I can get them repeating sentences after me with near-perfect pronunciation and accent after a few sessions. Give me someone who can't speak a word of English and it will be even faster. Now, this is all without any reference to the writing system whatsoever. If they try to rely on their (flawed) understanding of English writing, they screw it up. If you can start a person off at the beginning with great pronunciation before they learn what anything means or how to write it, they will likely keep said good pronunciation when they get more advanced in the language. And the best way to correct flawed pronunciation is to wean them off of thinking about the writing system while they speak and listen by getting them to repeat sentences in a native accent over and over (I find chorusing works well for this) until it feels wrong to use bad pronunciation. It takes a lot of work if the bad habits are ingrained.

Anyway, if anyone can explain to me how it could possibly be better to confuse the issue by teaching writing right off the bat, I'm all ears.

[Mactuary]

Well said.