Learning Modern Chinese First?

[LyYenKhang]

I am a high school student. About two years ago, I first came across Vietnamese poetry written in the Tang Dynasty format. This got me very interested in Tang poetry and has inspired me to study Chinese.

When I first began, I didn't really realize the differences between modern Chinese (Mandarin in this case) and the classical language. Very soon though, it dawned on me that studying modern Mandarin would be of little use to me for being able to read old poetry and the classical texts. I bought McNaughton's Reading and Writing Chinese (Traditional characters) for the sake of learning how to write and studied basic grammar with various older textbooks at a local library but that is it. Probably, it can be said that I have a very basic grasp of modern Chinese grammar. I am beginning to be able to understand some portions of Chinese songs even without reading the characters (Embarassing example: I could sing a long to almost all of the song Tong Hua the first time I see it).

This is my question: Next year I am going to college. The university where I am studying has a Chinese major program, so Chinese does have a presence on the campus. However, the program seems to be limited to modern Mandarin taught with simplified characters. In your experience, will taking modern Mandarin classes in anyway help my study of classical Chinese? Thus far I've been working with solely traditional characters, and know only a few hundred maybe. I've bought both Rouzer's and Fuller's textbooks and am going to start working through Rouzer first. I have a classical Sino-Vietnamese dictionary (that also has Pinyin pronunciation and the simplified form along with the traditional). In short, I'm really comfortable just studying classical Chinese on my own - I have the Chinese text for the Daodejing and the Four Books in book form, and those are the main texts I use to study. To give an idea of my level, there are some chapters of the Daodejing where I can read 90% of the characters and there are some where I can read maybe about 70%. The Lunyu is hit and miss since the content is wider but still, most chapters I can read and understand at least 50% percent of the characters.

While I am OK with self-study (really my progress has been stunted simply because I have high school busywork to do), I think I could also benefit from a structured environment under the direction of a teacher.

If anything, as far as modern Chinese goes, I'd rather learn Cantonese, although Mandarin is pretty essential nowadays.

Question: While a modern Mandarin class help me improve, or will it be a distraction?

p.s. another thing is that I need to find a teacher so he can give me a style name when I turn 20, since giving yourself one is just bad taste! hehe

[icebear]

While I am OK with self-study (really my progress has been stunted simply because I have high school busywork to do), I think I could also benefit from a structured environment under the direction of a teacher.

If anything, as far as modern Chinese goes, I'd rather learn Cantonese, although Mandarin is pretty essential nowadays.

Question: While a modern Mandarin class help me improve, or will it be a distraction?

I suspect you already know the answer to most of your questions; it depends a lot on the strengths of your university's Chinese program, which only you can determine unless you provide more information on which university it is and their department.

Also, it sounds like you have little interest in learning modern spoken/written Mandarin except if it will help your reading of classical Chinese... if this is really your sole goal, I think you're probably better off investing your private time in that interest and your education in an area that will provide you with better employment options. Just my opinion.

If you're actually considering a career as a reader of classical Chinese (e.g. an academic) you probably need to seriously evaluate if the school you plan to attend can take you there, and if not, how to transfer to one that can.

[LyYenKhang]

I forgot the clarify that I am not planning on majoring in Chinese. As far as a career goes, I have that worked out and planning a major in a field totally unrelated to Chinese. If I did take modern Chinese, it would just be something like an elective, etc.

Also, I'm not totally opposed to the idea of learning the modern language. I'm just not sure it's worth investing money and a spot in my schedule to study, especially since I'm in an area with a high Asian population with a lot of Mandarin and Cantonese speakers that I could probably just associate with and pick up the essentials from. The Modern language is just secondary to my primary interest in the classical. I use Sino-Vietnamese pronunciation of the characters, so I really don't even need to learn Mandarin or Cantonese pronunciation at present.

My goal with learning Classical Chinese is basically just to be able to read all the old texts (essentially, anything on ctext.org), poetry, etc for my own betterment, possibly to work on translations into Vietnamese/English, and to be able to compose writing and poetry in the classical language.

Speaking of colleges, which are the top ones for studying classical Chinese in the U.S.?

[icebear]

I forgot the clarify that I am not planning on majoring in Chinese. As far as a career goes, I have that worked out and planning a major in a field totally unrelated to Chinese. If I did take modern Chinese, it would just be something like an elective, etc.

My goal with learning Classical Chinese is basically just to be able to read all the old texts (essentially, anything on ctext.org), poetry, etc for my own betterment, possibly to work on translations into Vietnamese/English, and to be able to compose writing and poetry in the classical language.

Again, I think you are answering your own question. You know your preferred career (and thus formal educational) goals differ greatly from your personal interests; I'd suggest focusing your paid-for university credits on your chosen career and spending your free time working on the classical Chinese. Given zero interest in modern spoken Chinese I'd guess you'd have difficulty with formal classes or language exchanges, even for classical Chinese, given that they may assume some passable level of spoken Chinese for instruction.

Can't offer any advice regarding best universities for classical Chinese, but I imagine the usual suspects will be in the list (the top 10, Ivies, etc).

[OneEye]

IMO, knowing modern Chinese is a tremendous help in learning to read Classical Chinese because it allows you to read 白話 translations, commentary, etc. The best reference works on the subject (grammar books, dictionaries, etc.) are also likely to be in Chinese (or in some cases Japanese), though I suppose there may be some decent material to this effect in Vietnamese, I don't know. At any rate, if you want to reach a really high level of proficiency in Classical Chinese, it's probably in your interest to study Modern Chinese too.

Most Chinese BAs (and maybe some minors) in the US worth anything at all will make you take at least some classical Chinese, and most classical Chinese courses will require you to already have some modern Chinese or Japanese (usually 1-2 years). Some schools have exchange programs with language schools in China and Taiwan (Berkeley and UCSB both have one with ICLP), so there may be the option for you to take a year abroad to study Chinese. Depending on which level you test into at such a program, you may have the opportunity to take some 文言文 courses while there. So you could minor in Chinese if you wanted, take three years at school (feasibly including one or two semesters of Classical), then a year abroad, and another year when you get back (maybe a second year of Classical if your school offers it).

Like icebear said, most big name schools have good Chinese programs. Off the top of my head, U of Washington, U Massachusetts Amherst, Indiana U, U Michigan, Ohio State, U Wisconsin, U Iowa, all seem to have good programs, though I don't know all the specifics for all of them. And of course Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, and the like will all have excellent programs, if you have the grades to go there.

[jkhsu]

I'd definitely also add UCLA and USC (they teach traditional characters and have Cantonese classes) to your list. Just from a quick glance, UCLA seems to offer the most number of Chinese classes overall and 2 years of Classical Chinese at the upper division level. Here's their full list. I'd also suggest going with an Asian languages / Chinese language minor and choose all Classical chinese classes at the upper division level. Being in Los Angeles also gives you plenty of opportunities for exposure to Cantonese / Vietnamese people / cultures which may be helpful as well. I know you mentioned that you live in an area with a high population of Asians but keep in mind that the University that you go to may not provide you with that environment.

[ChouDoufu]

I applaud your pursuit to study classical Chinese.

While you can start out using English resources and little knowledge of modern Chinese, you'll quickly run out of English language materials to help you study classical Chinese. Like OneEye said:

The best reference works on the subject (grammar books, dictionaries, etc.) are also likely to be in Chinese..., if you want to reach a really high level of proficiency in Classical Chinese, it's probably in your interest to study Modern Chinese too.

Don't trust the English translations of classical works, either. They usually aren't very good.

[skylee]

I am impressed by the OP's interest and determination to pursue it. But I can't understand regarding studying modern Chinese as a distraction rather than help. This seems quite short-sighted in my humble opinion, and reminds me of those foreign learners who wish to learn only speaking and listening Chinese without the ability to read and write it. When one is contented being an illiterate of course there is very little other people can do to help him. By the same token, if one is determined not to learn modern Chinese then there is very little others can do either. I just wonder if one can communicate very well with others without knowing modern Chinese. But if communication is not the objective, or if people can communicate by just poetry (this is not unlikely, given the simple language used in some of the Tang poetry) or classical Chinese, then this would be a non-issue. But OP, do you plan to write/express about what you feel and think about what you have learned in classical Chinese? But then if you don't intend to express it in Chinese (or at all), not learning modern Chinese is of course not an issue.

This has just reminded me of my discussion with a friend of the terms "uneven" and "uneveness". I tried to tell my friend that they had less negative connotation, which was why they were good words to use in our reports, but she was not convinced.

Any way best of luck, OP.

PS - simplified vs traditional is a non-issue, really.

[LyYenKhang]

ChouDoufu,

Indeed, I've realized how awkward some translations of the classic texts can be (this is probably most true for James Legge's translation of the Daodejing). Other texts I've come across sometimes suffer from being too liberally translated, etc. All the subtleties of the classical language cannot but be lost in a single translation (or expounded in copious footnotes).

You do bring up a good point about the limits of English language material. As far as Vietnamese material, there are a few books that I know of, but I haven't examined their content - I do suspect that Vietnamese books for learning Classical Chinese will be limited (though translations and printings of original classic texts, etc abound).

My main texts in addition to Fuller and Rouzer are Dover Publishing's reprints of James Legge's translations of the Four Books (includes all the original Chinese text), John Wu's translation of the Daodejing (includes Chinese text), and a modern Taiwanese printing of the Lunyu that has a lot of annotations and translations into baihua (along with bopomofo for the original text). I haven't worked much with the Taiwanese book because my Chinese is not on the level that I can understand the notes. A lot of times I can somewhat grasp their meaning, but that is only with the translations of the quotes and sections that I already understand.

Skylee,

You do bring up good points, as have the other users that I have contributed to this thread. My initial concern was that learning modern Chinese would burden me with learning different word usage, etc. In hindsight, I don't think it would be much of a problem, other than being more time-consuming. In the long-run, it may very well benefit me more as you have suggested.

I would intend to write letters in classical Chinese (although I have no idea who I'd write them to). But I see your point that modern Chinese would be necessary for oral communication.

Perhaps I will learn modern Chinese after all.

古之圣賢近道也。是以其文通也。其文吾所好也。今之文不如此吾不好之也。