Some questions about written Cantonese / written Chinese in HK

[chrisp]

Hi all

I've just moved to Hong Kong and, whilst I speak several European languages (English, German and Dutch) I have no prior experience with any Chinese language. I've decided to try and learn some Cantonese, and have already bought a number of books from Greenwood Press / Commercial Press. The issue seems to have been discussed a number of times before, but there are a couple of things that I'm still not quite clear on and would like clarification of:

1. When I see written Chinese around me in Hong Kong, e.g. on restaurant menus, bus advertisements, in shop windows - what is this / what is it more likely to be: standard written Chinese or written Cantonese?

2. The dialogues written in the Greenwood press books such as "Cantonese for English Speakers" and "Learning Cantonese Through Stories - The Story of Minami" - are these written in standard Chinese, or written Cantonese, or some sort of hybrid? Obviously as I'm only just beginning I can't tell, and would like to know exactly what I'm looking at, given that the book doesn't say.

Say a menu in a restaurant is written in standard Chinese, but you have learnt written Cantonese characters - would there be much difference in this case? Would you still be able to read the menu? What about if the reverse were true - could someone that could only read standard written Chinese understand a menu that were written in Cantonese? Or are there no real differences between the two when it comes to food vocabulary?

I would like to learn the language and go beyond just the spoken language - how frustrating is it to be able to speak a language but not be able to understand anything written in it around you!? I find it quite annoying when textbooks rely solely on romanisation / when it says that the Chinese characters have purely been included so that a Chinese person can look at the book and understand it should you have any questions for him/her? But why not include them for the sake of the learner? Surely most learners of Cantonese also want to be able to read it?

[skylee]

Welcome to Hong Kong. Hope you enjoy the city.

Q1. It could be either, or a hybrid. In theory, people should write in standard Chinese. But in practice this is not always the case. Cantonese is used a lot in advertisement, tabloids/gossip megazines. Sometimes it is intentional, to attract attention, to be funny, etc. Sometimes the writers are just not aware that they are mixing Cantonese in their writing, or are unable to write in standard Chinese because of lack of trainging or education. So it is hard to say. But on more serious / formal occasions the written materials tend to be in standard Chinese.

Q2. Minami? This is a Japanese name meaning "south". Anyways, in my view Cantonese is a spoken language. I am a native speaker but I find it hard to write it (lack of training / practice). I would think that in a text book that teaches people Cantonese the text in the textbook should be written in Cantonese.

I don't know about menus written in Cantonese (is it possible?). There seems to be some confusion here. Let's say there is a lot of overlapping in standard Chinese and Cantonese. They share the same script (never mind simplified vs traditional which is a non-issue here). However, there are certain words that are only used in Cantonese. Also, the grammar, word order and word choices in Cantonese are not exactly the same as in Mandarin/Standard Chinese. So if you write something that truly reflects how it is spoken in Cantonese, that something can be quite different from Standard Chinese and difficult for non-Cantonese speakers to understand. I think this is likely to happen in advertisements, tabloids/gossip megazines, and textbooks that teach Cantonese. Things written in standard Chinese can be understood by anyone who can read because that is what is taught in schools.

If you want to understand things written around you, you must also learn standard Chinese.

[chrisp]

Thank you for your response! A lot of my confusion comes from the fact that I simply don't know how big the overlap is between written Cantonese and standard written Chinese. So am I right in thinking that characters for foods/dishes etc. appearing on a menu are the same regardless of whether you are writing standard Chinese or Cantonese? I.e. there are no special Cantonese characters for, say, "noodles", "beef", "dumplings" etc.? Is it just grammatical words / exclusively Cantonese expressions that get their own characters?

Also, I've read the wikipedia article on written Cantonese and it says that Cantonese uses, for example, the characters 佢 for keúih and 唔 for m̀h, so I take it that any text using these characters for these two words is immediately "written Cantonese" and not standard written Chinese? Would the standard written Chinese equivalent use 他 and 不 for these two words, but a Cantonese speaker reading the (standard) text aloud would pronounce these two characters as keúih and m̀h respectively? Or would they use a difference pronunciation?

[jbradfor]

Everything skylee said is correct. But she's a native Cantonese speaker, let me give you a perspective of a fellow 鬼佬 (there's a word you need to learn!) learning Chinese as a foreign language.

For just being able to read standard Cantonese vs standard Mandarin [1], there is not a huge gap. There are probably a dozen or two basic words that are different (you might want to look here for some examples, anyone have a better list?) that you'll need to learn. Otherwise, there are differences in grammar and word choice, but in terms of reading, I've found that reading in Hong Kong is not really that different than reading in Taiwan or Mainland. But there are some differences. My wife (native Cantonese speaker) would say something like "mou a" to mean "not" or "none". When I started learning Mandarin, I assumed the "mou" was the Cantonese pronunciation for 没. It was many years later that I realized that Cantonese uses a different word (冇). Another example was an early word I learned was "sik fan" (time to eat!). I again assumed that "sik" was the Cantonese pronunciation for 吃, when in fact Cantonese uses a different word for the verb "to eat", 食. 食 is used in Mandarin as well, but usually a as noun, not a verb.

If you want to learn to write standard Cantonese (which I haven't tried), I would think it would be a lot harder to get right.

never mind simplified vs traditional which is a non-issue here

I just want to ensure that when you discuss written Mandarin vs written Cantonese, you understand this is a different issue than simplified vs traditional script, right?

[1] A political note. Some people get offended when you call it "standard Chinese", rather than "standard Mandarin", as it implies that Cantonese is less of a valid dialect of Chinese than Mandarin is. Not to everyone, certainly, but be aware that "standard Chinese" has political overtones to some.

[chrisp]

Thanks for your response too! It might get a bit confusing as my replies need to be approved before they appear (new member to the forums)! Yup, I realise that the written Mandarin vs written Cantonese issue is a different one from the traditional/simplified script issue, although good to point it out!

What I'm still a little confused about, is whether these extra "Cantonese" characters (such as the ones for m̀h and keúih I quoted in my earlier post, which should hopefully appear before this one) immediately mark out a text as non-standard, or whether official/standard writing in Hong Kong will use these characters. I keep reading that there is one, standard, written language, which doesn't vary no matter where you are in the Chinese speaking area (with the exception of the simplified/traditional distinction), so that's what makes me wonder whether characters such as these can ever appear in any "standard" form of the language.

[tjlai]

Hi there, I'm kind of a native Cantonese speaker (it's actually my 2nd language but my wife is from Hong Kong so I speak it a lot). I am Chinese but I was born and raised in the UK.

It's like what Skylee and Jbradfor have already mentioned. There are quite a few words used in Cantonese that are different to mandarin. For example 'we' in mandarin would be written as 我們 but in 'spoken' cantonese it is 我地. Although, usually you would see it written as 我們 anyway (for example, on the subtitles of the news) with people actually saying '我地' instead when they read it. Confused? I would be! It does take quite a bit of getting used to and it's something that you should rapidly pick up on when you actually live in Hong Kong.

[jbradfor]

I keep reading that there is one, standard, written language, which doesn't vary no matter where you are in the Chinese speaking area

This is what I meant by the political issue.

There is one standard for written Mainland Mandarin, defined by the CCP. This is not the same as a single standard for written Mandarin (e.g. Taiwan is very slightly different, as is Singapore), and very much not the same as a standard for Chinese in general. The CCP, however, over the last couple of decades has been pushing this standard of "written Mainland Mandarin" as "The Standard", and from my experience, a lot of people on the mainland have been "brainwashed" into believing this is true.

At the same time, there is some amount of resentment from native speakers of other dialects as to how much their dialect has been marginalized by the CCP. This is most keenly seen in Hong Kong, due to its political independence from Beijing, certainly before the hand-over, but still true today.

there are no special Cantonese characters for, say, "noodles", "beef", "dumplings" etc.? Is it just grammatical words / exclusively Cantonese expressions that get their own characters?

AFAIK, this is correct. You are likely to find dishes only in Hong Kong you won't find anywhere else, but that's a different issue.

There are also differences in word uses, such as the 吃/食 I mentioned previously. Both are valid in both Mandarin and Cantonese, but the use is slightly different.

EDIT: there are also some differences in the words for different foods; we had a big discussion on 白菜 and 油菜 some time back about this..... But these types of regional variations are expected everywhere, such as in the USA, crawfish vs crawdads, pop vs soda vs coke.

我地

I believe you mean 我哋?

[tjlai]

Haha, yeah. Thanks

[skylee]

The 我地 vs 我哋 is another issue with written Cantonese. There is not a standard on how certain words should be written (no matter what some people might tell you), so you just write what you think is right. Some people advocate that they should be written in the ancient ways and the mouthy words are not correct. Some will tell you that some words have a mouth radical. Some do not bother with the mouth at all and just use words of the same or similar pronunciation. I think all are acceptable, though some forms are more common than others. But this is clearly a challenge for learners.

PS - this reminds me that in the early 20th century when written vernacular Chinese was not that standardised it was not that uncommon that different forms were used for the same words.

[chrisp]

Thanks for all your input guys, all very interesting! What I'm still not entirely clear on is the status of the characters I mentioned above: 佢 for keúih and 唔 for m̀h (just to give two examples). If I see these two characters in a text is this an immediate indication that what I'm looking at is "written Cantonese" or could they still be used in the standard/"official" written language used in Hong Kong? Would, for example, these characters be used by the Hong Kong government in official publications/legislation etc.? Or would 他 and 不 be used instead? And, if the latter is the case, would these be read as "keúih" and "m̀h", or would they have different readings?

[skylee]

Q1. If I see 佢 and 唔 in a text is this an immediate indication that what I'm looking at is "written Cantonese" or could they still be used in the standard/"official" written language used in Hong Kong??

- Almost. 佢 is hardly used in standard Chinese. 唔 can still appear in standard Chinese as a form of exclamation.

Q2. Would, for example, 佢 and 唔 be used by the Hong Kong government in official publications/legislation etc.? Or would 他 and 不 be used instead?

- Unlikely in legislation and in official documents, which are written in standard Chinese. But in promotion materials (like government poster telling people not to do drugs etc) it is not unlikely that 佢 and 唔 are used.

Q3. And, if 他 and 不 are used instead, would these be read as "keúih" and "m̀h", or would they have different readings?

- It would depend on the person who reads it. It is likely that they are read as "ta" and "but". But some might like to change them to "keoi" and "ng". Read this thread for reference -> http://www.chinese-f...nese-languages/

BTW, what romanisation is it that you are using? You might consider learning Jyutping, which is IMHO quite easy and standardised, and you can use it for typing.

[chrisp]

That romanisation is Yale, but that typing tool is pretty handy, thanks!

[Takeshi]

While not exactly the OP's question, I've been curious about this for quite a while and it is related, so if skylee is still reading this topic I'd be curious as to what she'd say:

You always mention that you "don't support" written Cantonese and say people should write in "standard Chinese". Okay, I understand that writing in spoken Cantonese is not very practical, but what is "standard Chinese"?

I refuse to believe that a hundred or so years ago when HK was a young colony that people then wrote in Mandarin the way people do today. I'm not sure how they wrote back then; I want to know too. I'll assume it was either classical or some 三及第 style. (Heck, I want to learn 三及第, but all traces of it seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth, and the Cantonese wiki page on it is blocked lol.)

When did writing change from this into Mandarin and why? I don't understand why it would have happened during the communist times when there would have been (I assume) less contact between the mainland and HK. Also skylee, would you be similarily opposed to writing in such styles? If you don't mind me asking, which style did you learn and when? Do you ever remember a time when people wrote differently or had people always been writing in Mandarin all your life?

While I agree that writing in spoken Cantonese would be weird, I don't understand why Cantonese people use spoken Mandarin terms in their writing when the spoken Cantonese term would be more literary or otherwise acceptable anyways. The first example I can think of off the top of my head is 今日 vs 今天. I find it ironic that when Northerners try to be formal, they would use 今日, but when southerners try to be formal they would use 今天. (If I'm getting something confused here please enlighten me.)

My last question is, do you feel or are you aware of any differences in "standard Chinese" written by HKers versus written by mainlanders? (Preference of 将 over 把 perhaps?) I understand that HK people can "read" stuff that was obviously written by a Northerner out in Cantonese anyways and are used to doing so, but would they use such words in their own writing or would there be any differences?

Thanks.

[skylee]

I am still reading this thread. But that was a lot of questions, and I don't really enjoy writing long posts and explaining what I think etc. If you read my blog, you will know what kind of Chinese that I have learnt and write.

As to standard Chinese, I don't have a good definition. I use this term to loosely refer to what is taught at schools and what is generally used. I don't support writing in Cantonese because 1) I find it difficult to write it because I was not trained to write it and there are some practical hurdles in typing / writing it. 2) Not everyone understands Cantonese and I don't enjoy writing something that not everyone understands. I can't understand things written in Shanghainese or Minnan dialects so I would not assume that things written in Cantonese could be widely understood. 3) I find the standard writing language elegant. I was taught this way. If I were taught differently I might feel differently.

三及第 writing was not rare when I was a kid (when newspapers were printed vertically). It is not that difficult. For example, I learnt the word 砼 the other day. To explain it in more or less a 三及第 style I can write 砼的發音跟同一樣，意思即係人工石，混凝土是也。的的了了+粵語+之乎者也. It can be a celebrated writing stlye for established writers. For learners and students taking exams it could be a bad writing style.

Of course people wrote differently 100 years ago. The language used and the trendy words would be different. Things changed. I don't know why HK people write in standard Chinese. I guess basically it is good for communication. When 文言 was the standard people wrote in 文言. When 白話 became the standard, people switched to 白話. I think it was quite natural .I have no idea why this had to do with the Communist Party. We have not adopted the simplified script, have we ?

Believe or refuse to believe whatever you see fit. Peace.

PS - As to Mainland vs HK writing styles, they are different but I don't know how to describe it. It will be a generalisation anyway. But sometimes even on Mainland forums you can tell some writers are Cantonese because of the words they use, like 心水, 來的 etc . Cantonese is not used in HK only. There are a lot of Cantonese speakers on the Mainland and overseas.

[wushijiao]

Note: the Baihua movement largely succeeded in the 1910's and 1920's. And thus, Baihua, or Standard Chinese, became the main medium of communication in most of China during that time. The Communists, or at least some factions and other leftists, were proponents of writting in dialect, mainly in order to educate and give propaganda to the uneducated "masses".

The dialogues written in the Greenwood press books such as "Cantonese for English Speakers" and "Learning Cantonese Through Stories - The Story of Minami" - are these written in standard Chinese, or written Cantonese, or some sort of hybrid?

In the case of The Story of Minami, and other books by Greenwood Press, these are written in Cantonese.

In general, my advise would be to learn characters, words, and how to pronounce them. That way, you'll be able to read both standard Chinese and written Cantonese.

[Takeshi]

Sorry about that. Thanks for your answers and opinions, it was enlightening. While I haven't read your blog (my Chinese isn't very good still), I have enjoyed most of your posts.

I guess I should go ahead and learn Canto, standard Chinese, and classical and then should be fit for 三及第. I'm a "learner", but I still think it would be cool if I could write in it.

About my question about HK/mainlander differences, it's because I want to keep to a mainly Cantonese writing style without being too vulgar, but the Mandarin we learn at school (even in Guangzhou!) is northerner Mandarin so I sort of have to learn to filter out words not to use by myself.

Ok, so I was wrong about the communist China thing. I suppose it could have been possible in the republic's time. It is kind of ironic though because before the Communist time, the Southern people wouldn't really have been speaking Mandarin, so they would be writing in Mandarin which would be more difficult for them despite the fact that the point of the 白话 revolution was to get people to write the way they speak. I was aware that people started writing in 白话 at those times, but I didn't think it would have become the standard for the country so early.

[skylee]

Do you know about the Imperial Examinations (科舉) that were held until the late 19th century? They provided people all over China with the chances to move upwards in the society. To gain any titles in the Imperial Examinations (and thus be appointed as officials afterwards, got status, got wealthy), one had to study hard and took written examinations. And what do you think they wrote in the examinations - the standard written language at the time. People were poor and not everyone could write/was literate. But for those who could/were, they were all able to write in the same script and the same standard written language, regardless of their mother tongues. So there was this long tradition, for over a thousand years. You find it ironic, but I think it was quite pragmatic.

The story goes that Cantonese was once considered as an option for the national language. Had it be chosen and standardised, Northern people might find themsleves writing in a southern language. haha. But the truth is, I think, that when there are so many dialects which are so very different, for people to communicate in such a big country, people have to either change the way they speak, or the way they write, or both. Isn't this also true for other countries where there are many languages spoken by different groups?. Either that, or the country falls apart.

I have no scholarly knowledge on this subject (or any other subjects really). These are just my layman's views.

[Takeshi]

The main difference is that before everyone spoke their own language but everyone had to learn a new literary language for writing. Now, the push was to write in the vernacular, ie, the way you speak, and get the whole country speaking and writing the same way. HK is the only exception to this because of special circumstances where they still speak their own language but followed the rest of the country in the change in writing for some reason.

All of these systems are like this because they are pragmatic of course. I understand this was the tradition of the country since Qin, and I find nothing ironic about it.

What's ironic is that despite the fact that the 白话 movement is to get people to write the way they speak, it only works for half the country, and the other half follows them not by writing the way they themselves speak, but by writing the way the founders of the movement spoke, so they didn't really go with the meaning of the movement in a sense. Sure, Cantonese people are able to read Standard Chinese in Cantonese fine, but I don't think 吴语, 闽语 and others are able to do so as easily, so for them it might have been easier to write in classical than in Standard Chinese.

[jkhsu]

Sure, Cantonese people are able to read Standard Chinese in Cantonese fine, but I don't think 吴语, 闽语 and others are able to do so as easily, so for them it might have been easier to write in classical than in Standard Chinese.

If 吴语 includes the Shanghai dialect, then I know plenty of Shanghainese people who can read Mandarin in Shanghainese. That's what the older folks there do all the time.

Also according to this Wikipedia link, the majority of people speak Mandarin. If the numbers are correct, standardizing on 836 million Mandarin speakers makes more sense than 71 million Cantonese speakers, don't you think?

Sure, if the point of the 白话 movement was to write down your own dialect, then yeah, that's not exactly what happened. However, the outcome is a national standard that everyone can use to communicate with each other. I don't think that's a bad result at all. I do hope that each region can preserve their spoken dialect because that's part of their culture and history.

[wushijiao]

By the way, you might also be interested in an old thread that I started about the book Cantonese as a Written Language, and written Cantonese in general.