about a use of 上

[kavanin]

领导上正在考虑我们提出的要求。 (An example sentence about a certain use of 上 from a textbook)

What I understand is: leadership is considering our demands. (the demands we put forward)

If I get the meaning correctly, I couldn't find a place for 上 in the meaning. What's its meaning and function here, please?

Another (minor) question: Is 提出 really necessary here? Can you just say ... 我们的要求? Is there any loss in the meaning? After all, if it's our 要求, it's we who 提出 it, so why stressing it? (Again, provided that my understanding of the meaning is correct)

[skylee]

Thanks for asking the question. 上 in the sentence seems redundant to me. I don't know why it is needed there. But Xiandai Hanyu Cidian says one of the functions of 上 is to be used after a noun to denote in that respect (用在名詞後，表示某一方面) and gives the examples of 組織上 / 事實上 / 思想上. 事實上 and 思想上 are very commonly used.

As to 提出, it can be there. Compare our request with the request we submitted, not much difference there. There are different ways to express meanings and ideas, or else things will be very boring. If you like things to be concise, you can drop 提出 in my opinion.

[creamyhorror]

Thanks for asking the question. 上 in the sentence seems redundant to me. I don't know why it is needed there. But Xiandai Hanyu Cidian says one of the functions of 上 is to be used after a noun to denote in that respect (用在名詞後，表示某一方面) and gives the examples of 組織上 / 事實上 / 思想上. 事實上 and 思想上 are very commonly used.

But in the sentence given, something has to act as the subject of 考虑. If that's a full, proper sentence, 领导 has to be the subject. That means 领导上 cannot be taken as an adverbial "In the aspect of leadership/with respect to leadership".

If the sentence were 领导上(someone)正在考虑我们提出的要求 I might find it more acceptable, but still a bit wonky.

I'd guess you're right, skylee, that 上 is incorrect here.

[roddy]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. There's also a definition in the 规范: 表示某一方面, and 领导上 is given as an example. Skylee hasn't said it's incorrect, just redundant (although I don't think it is).

(edited to make it look like I read everything carefully before posting, rather than after)

[gato]

I thought it looked a bit odd, too, but a google search shows that it's not an uncommon usage.

I think the difference is whereas 领导 refers to a specific person, 领导上 refers to a more abstract "leadership" as a group or class. Another way to say it would be 领导层面.

That is, 领导正在考虑 means "the leader is considering", whereas 领导上正在考虑 means "the leadership is considering".

https://www.google.c...0j4l4l0.efis.1.

"领导上正在"

[skylee]

Perhaps this is a common usage on the Mainland. But it still sounds odd. I think that 領導 can be used to refer to a group of people, not just individuals. 領導層 is even clearer in that sense. In Hong Kong, we like to use "the Management", "the Administration", etc to refer to a group of people and to be (just a little bit) evasive (or more appropriately referred to as collective responsibility ). Translation of these terms are 管理層/管理當局/政府/有關當局, etc.

I think a more appropriate usage of 領導上 would be something like 陳大文同志因在領導上犯了嚴重錯誤，故依例處分.

PS - There is also 領導下 - e.g. 這次的戰爭，在李將軍的英明領導下，獲得最後勝利。 (From the Taiwan MOE Dictionary)

[kavanin]

Enlightening! Thank you all.

[gato]

Translation of these terms are 管理層/管理當局/政府/有關當局, etc.

管理層, 管理當局, and 有關當局 all are very formal. 领导上 could be a colloquial way of saying the same thing. ;-)

[skylee]

管理層 is not formal, at least not in HK. 領導上 might be acceptable on the Mainland, but I wonder if people elsewhere find it just as acceptable (e.g. try googling it for webpages in Traditional Chinese).

[gato]

True. Another possibility is that 領導上 is a leftover from Communist days. 管理層 didn't become common until private businesses were prevalent.

You don't hear 领导层 much in everyday speech, right?

[creamyhorror]

I thought it looked a bit odd, too, but a google search shows that it's not an uncommon usage

https://www.google.c...0j4l4l0.efis.1.

"领导上正在"

There aren't many results there and there are a lot more for "领导正在". Googling "领导上" doesn't give many examples of this subject usage either. At the most I'd say this is uncommon and possibly regional. Although the Guifan example is puzzling.

In general, i don't think 上 is a suffix that produces a noun.

[roddy]

Whenever anyone says something is regional I always like to ask: which region? I think 'regional' is often used to dismiss something as not worth worrying about.

It's not necessarily a common usage (it's the third of four usages in the entry for noun uses of 上, and the fourth is an odd one I've never seen*) and it is a bit 官味. But there's nothing wrong with it. Where's Kenny? I want to know what Kenny thinks.

Which textbook was this in?

*buy the dictionary, it's worth it.

[skylee]

Edit - Yeah, where's Kenny?

[chinskycraze]

I might be totally wrong, but I'd analyze the 上 here just like you'd analyse it, say, in the phrase 桌子上, where it is clearly a suffix turning a typical noun into a place phrase. As far as I know, it is not uncommon for place words to act as if they were animate subjects of the sentence, e.g. 学校正在考虑增加暑假。So that the sentences would translate somewhat on the lines of: "In the leadership above us, (they) are currently considering the demands we put forwards." It seems to me that the sentence would work without 上 as well, though it is by no means redundant. It flavours the sentence introducing the idea of distance between the decision-makers and "us", as if implying that we can only sit and wait for those above us to make the decision. I don't think it says anything about there being one or multiple decison-makers, though. But all of the above is only a guess, correct me if I'm wrong.

As for 我们提出的要求 and 我们的要求, they obviously mean the same thing, but the difference is HOW they do it. 我们提出的要求 sounds a bit more formal, cos it's got the verb-noun collocation. As you learn a language it's always useful to have different ways to express the same ideas up your sleave, to avoid repetition.

[creamyhorror]

It's not necessarily a common usage (it's the third of four usages in the entry for noun uses of 上, and the fourth is an odd one I've never seen*) and it is a bit 官味. But there's nothing wrong with it.

If you're talking about the definition "表示某一方面", that's an absolutely correct definition.

I specifically said "this subject usage", because in my understanding, the 某一方面 usage is adverbial, i.e. it can't be used as a grammatical subject.

"领导上我们还需要进步" is perfectly fine, because 领导上 is being used adverbially and is not the subject.

However, if I say,

"道理上是很简单的"

what I actually mean is

"道理上(这事情)是很简单的"

- the subject (这事情) is implied, and it cannot be 道理(上).

If 领导上 is being used in this case as a grammatical subject, then it doesn't fit the definition 某一方面 or 表示时间、处所、范围 (from Zdic). I'd then classify it as another use of 上, perhaps one that isn't in the dictionary. At least, I don't see a matching definition at Zdic along the lines of 上部 or 上层.

Kenny, your input will be appreciated.

[yialanliu]

Not 100% sure but this is how I'd translate it

领导上=领导上面

The upper leadership, help differentiate that they are not your immediate superiors but are further up.

What's the textbook it's coming out of?

[roddy]

That's not what it means.

[yialanliu]

You disagree without knowing the answer...

[kavanin]

Thank you all for your gracious help.

It's from Elementary Chinese Readers 3 Revised Edition by Sinolingua p. 134. Here is the full excerpt:

“上”有时还可以指方面。例如:

Sometimes 上 also refers to a certain respect, e.g.

他在音乐上下了很大功夫。

领导上正在考虑我们提出的要求。

你们在学习上或者生活上有没有困难?

Edit: Question mark for the last sentence.

[skylee]

Yes, Kavanin, what you said at #19 is the same as what I said at #2 and #6, what roddy said about Guifan at #4, and what creamyhorror said at #15. Of the three examples you quoted in #19, the second one (ie the one you asked about at #1) does not show the correct use of the function of "referring to a certain respect" of the word 上, in my opinion. The first and the last examples are correct (but the last one needs a question mark).

I think the correct usage of 領導上 to "refer to a certain respect" would be something like -

陳大文同志因在領導上犯了嚴重錯誤，故依例處分。

我司在領導上採用最新的管理原則，務求達致最高效率。

However it seems that 領導上 is sort of a set term used to refer to the leaders in general with some negative implications thanks to Wang Xiaobo's interpretation. Read more ->

http://lz.book.sohu....-111249689.html

http://club.kdnet.ne...e=1&1=1#7731140