The difference between mild joshing and actual insults

[count_zero]

Both westerners and Chinese josh with their friends, bust each others' balls, rib each other.

However, there seem to be some huge differences in how it's done.

As an example.

Her: 你真是潮的让人受不了了！ (your so fashionable, people won't be able to stand you!)

Me: 潮流的哥哥为什么让人受不了了？应该是让人欢迎！ (people won't be able to stand a fashionable guy? Surely he would be accepted!)

Her: 你太好玩儿了。我这是在夸你哪！ 哼！ 看来你早餐没吃好！(You're too funny. I was praising you. Seems like you didn't have breakfast yet.)

So it seems in this situation I was supposed to know that saying people "can't stand you" is actually a compliment!

Part of the problem is of course figuring out how strong certain words are. I get the impression that calling someone 挑食 (a fussy eater) is actually quite rude. Someone may call themselves a 吃货, but if you call them that they will be insulted. In English, calling someone a 'nut' or a 'madman' is almost a compliment because you're suggesting they have an extreme or interesting personality. I get the impression that in Chinese, that would be very rude.

Anyone have an experience with this or insights into how best to josh with Chinese people without actually seriously insulting them!

[anonymoose]

I think most words could be understood in more than one way depending on the situation. I think you need to be more concerned with your tone and delivery than the specific words used.

[yialanliu]

Agree with above, 90% is delivering, not what words you use.

[count_zero]

The examples I gave were all on the internet so tone had nothing to do with it.

Another example. I believe 下样儿 is a mild insult that comes across as affectionate.

[Olle Linge]

That it's done over the internet doesn't mean that tone has nothing to do with it. This happens for native speakers in any language over the internet for that very reason. Of course, it's harded to pick it up in a foreign language, but I also agree with the others that this isn't so much about actual words.

[Guest realmayo]

Couple of previous threads:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/3805-sarcasm-in-chinese/

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/14288-sarcasm/

[murrayjames]

Wow, tough crowd.

count_zero, I'm with you. The boundary between light teasing and insults isn't clear to me either---certainly online but sometimes in face-to-face conversations too!

I'm pretty sarcastic around people I'm comfortable with. After moving to China I quickly realized I needed to pay more attention to how my remarks were received. My natural inclination to 说反话 wasn't always appreciated, or even understood.

[陳德聰]

I find this kind of fascinating, since I thought even in English it mainly depends on the relationship between the two people exchanging words, right?

If I told my friend she was kind of a bimbo... I feel like she would not be that offended. In Chinese I would do the same thing, but something I would say to perhaps help in detecting this type of thing: If you think it seems really weird what the person is saying, then perhaps they are joking.

For your example about being so trendy that people can't stand it... Your initial reaction that "uh, wouldn't people think it's a good thing???" is what you should trust, especially since it is unlikely your friend would say something mean like "you're so ____ I can't stand it".

[Guest realmayo]

In the OP's example, Person A makes a statement and Person B gives an unexpected response. Either:

(i) Person B means what he's saying (and either you or he are mistaken about the world).

(ii) Person B does not mean what he's saying (and either he's lying or he's making a joke).

If the two people are from the same country/background etc, I think you are more likely to quickly discount option (i). Your understanding of the world leads you to think it's unlikely to be true; you share a similar view of the world to the other person so surely he can't really think this is true? You cast around for a way of working out this contradiction and you quickly consider option (ii), that he's joking.

But if the person is from a different background then you might be less ready to discount option (i); after all, there are plenty of cultural differences etc etc. So, you have less reason to consider to option (ii) -- instead, you keep puzzling over how it can be true. After all, in the Chinese context, there are plenty of things we will have found out that are very different from our own countries, and we will have often relied on Chinese friends to highlight and explain these differences to us. So: our initial response to hearing something suprising is: 'oh, is that what it's like in China, tell me more'.

Which makes me think about those previous threads on the topic: could foreigners' attempts at this deadpan humour be failing not because Chinese people don't deploy that humour amongst each other, but because the same scenario is playing out in reverse, and the Chinese person is not considering the "he must be joking option" even though they would consider it if they were talking to another Chinese person?

[count_zero]

Some more examples.

I @ed a collegue on Weibo. She said "你为什么不follow我？ 只@ 有屁用！" (why don't you follow me? what damned use is @? )

Now, she's acting angry at me (Chinese LOVE to act angry) for not being more friendly by following her. She thinks it's ok to swear at me because we've known each other for months. This I can completely understand.

However, another college who is a thirty-something Chinese male was wearing a bright blue and quite tight T-shirt (here in Beijing it seems quite common for thirty-something males to wear tight T-shirts that emphasive adipose tissue rather than muscle). She said to him "你太2了！", which is almost as bad as saying "you look like a retard!" I was really surprised she'd be that rude. I daresay this is the kind of cultural subtlety that will be hard to explain in words.

Another example though. In Chinese 你很有意思 could very well be an insult. In Chinese, 有意思 can mean strange or slightly crazy.

[Guest realmayo]

In Chinese, 有意思 can mean strange or slightly crazy.

Your conclusion is, erm, interesting. :mrgreen:

[陳德聰]

Hm. I think realmayo makes an outrageously amazing point and I want to upvote #9 a bazillion times.

Things are only rude if the people involved think they are rude. I imagine your 30-something colleague knew that your friend was joking/half-joking (since after looking up adipose tissue I realized what that must have looked like). If you know someone doesn't mean what they are saying--if there is some sort of shared mental space between the two people taking part in the discourse--then you can get that they are joking.

After reading through one of the threads posted above, I was reminded of a bad habit I used to have of saying "really?" when people were telling stories. Generally it would go something like:

"I didn't eat breakfast today "

"Really?"

"No."

没吃早饭啦

真的吗？

假的。