Taiwan: A People's History

[pprendeville]

Strictly speaking, this isn't Chinese, but does anyone know if it's available to watch online or download?

[jkhsu]

Try searching for it on Youtube or Youku. The links to the first part below:

http://v.youku.com/v...gwMzE4ODky.html

[skylee]

Am I the only one who finds the OP's opening remark unnecessary, inappropriate and offensive?

[陳德聰]

People in many different countries learn many different things about the status of Taiwan-China relations, and I suspect that conversation is one that is usually avoided here.

[jkhsu]

@skylee: I think you might be reading too much into the OP's motives behind his comment. I actually think (I'm taking a guess here) the OP might not be aware that chinese-forums is open to discussions on "Chinese related" (and often non-Chinese related) topics that cover not only mainland China, but Hong Kong, Taiwan and places outside of Greater China. If this was a "Taiwan / Formosa Forum" and the OP was looking for a video about mainland China while saying, "strictly speaking this isn't Taiwanese", it wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

[pprendeville]

Apologies if I've caused any offence here. As per previous post, I thought this forum only included stuff about mainland China. I can see your point of view. I am Irish and am used to the Ireland/Northern Ireland debate. Once again, I didn't mean to upset anyone.

[edelweis]

Am I the only one who finds the OP's opening remark unnecessary, inappropriate and offensive?

Actually I think most "Westerners" who have not studied Chinese culture would find the OP's remark legitimate and understandable. On maps edited in the Western world, the mainland and Taiwan have different colors, so for the uneducated Westerner they must be different countries, just like Japan is different from Korea.

Those Westerners who have some basic knowledge of Chinese politics and culture would wince though.

Skylee, please do not be offended, but even with my very basic knowledge about Chinese culture, my first thought about your post was that it was an exaggerate reaction.

Now, thanks to your post, I understand that I greatly underestimated the sensitivity of this issue, despite recently reading about it in 圈子圈套.

Thank you for posting

Here is the passage of 圈子圈套：

科克连着点头说：“是的，美国一定会被中国超过去的，我完全相信，而且我认为可能用不了多久，可能五十年，最多一百年。Jim，你可以看看亚洲的发展，这几个国家都在增长，像中国、香港、台湾和韩国，亚洲一定又会成为世界的中心的。”

洪钧立刻接了一句，脸上仍然带着笑容，但是语气很坚定，不容质疑地说：“科克，我不得不更正一下，香港和台湾都不是国家，只是中国的两个地区而已。”

科克愣了一下，也立刻笑了起来，指着洪钧说：“Jim，你是对的。你提醒得好，以后我去中国，不，不管在哪里，当我见到中国人的时候，都会注意这一点。”

洪钧知道，科克其实很可能根本不在意台湾是不是属于中国的，在他心目中这些地理概念都只是他的市场的不同区域而已。洪钧清楚自己不可能改变科克对这些问题的看法，但他必须让科克明白，当他面对中国人，尤其是中国的客户的时候，他必须有意识地留神这些敏感的话题。

[skylee]

No problem. I am now more unhappy realising you are in Paris but did not notice/ reply to my request for help on mobile surfing in France. Haha. I didn't quite understand it though. Anyway. :）

[xiaocai]

If this was a "Taiwan / Formosa Forum" and the OP was looking for a video about mainland China while saying, "strictly speaking this isn't Taiwanese", it wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

Because the word Chinese is inclusive whereas Taiwanese is exclusive. I think it is much more likely to cause any confusion the other way around.

However if you somehow refer them as "Chinese" or use simplified Chinese on a "Taiwan/Formosa Forum" then I'd suppose many eye brows will be raised.

[BertR]

Hehe, 圈子圈套 has other similar passages:

这个卡彭特有意思，虽说是技术出身，但是对政治、历史和地理这些五花八门的东西特别感兴趣，还喜欢四处旅行啊探险啊。应该是前年吧，对，前年夏天，他专门跑了趟中国，不是为了公司的业务，是他要去西藏玩儿。这家伙是叫嚣西藏独立的，在e-mail里 就说他要‘经过中国去西藏’，把中国和西藏并列了，我就告诉他，错了，应该是‘经过北京、成都去西藏’，根本就没出中国呢。我专门陪他去的，来回两个星 期，我和他争了两个星期。我说如果他认为西藏应该独立，我就认为德克萨斯州应该独立，结果后来就变成争论德克萨斯该不该独立了。我说德州本来是墨西哥的， 后来独立了，不久就被并入美国了。现在想让西藏独立的人，也不会看到一个独立的西藏就善罢甘休，也是打算先让西藏独立出去，再被他们纳入他们的势力范围。 后来又说到台湾闹独立，就更是这样了，日本人最不是东西，他们之所以支持台独，就是为了将来把台湾像琉球一样并入日本。”

[li3wei1]

In about 1989 or so, I was working in Taiwan, writing in English for a trade publication, and I was told I could not use the phrase 'Taiwanese furniture-makers', because it was tantamount to saying 'furniture-makers who advocate Taiwanese independence'. Instead i had to write 'furniture-makers in Taiwan', or even better, 'furniture-makers in the ROC'. I imagine things have moved on since then, sensitivity-wise, but these things crop up on both sides of the fence.

[edelweis]

@skylee: that's corrected now.

@BertR lol somehow I fail to find the Texas thing offensive

[陳德聰]

@xiaocai Unfortunately though, sometimesChinese is not used inclusively, particularly with regard to people who make a distinction between "Chinese" and Cantonese (I don't want to pin this on 'uneducated Westerners' though, my friends from Singapore regularly do this), as if Chinese is synonymous with Mandarin but does not include any other languages. I think it is completely unsurprising that people would use Chinese to refer to Mainland China in an exclusive way, and that referring to China, Taiwan, and HK as distinct is very common amongst young people overseas but does not actually speak to the sovereignty of China whatsoever.

I think that the issue is pretty unnecessarily charged since this is not even something that a majority of people even give any thought to on a daily basis, which makes it much easier to say something like "I'm going to China and then I'm going to Taiwan this summer". Regardless of what is politically correct, I feel that this is only as offensive as someone saying Britain instead of the UK... I guess I just wonder what is so offensive about semantics that are not really even set in people's minds in the first place re: Chinese and what that means.

Edit: UK/Britain is definitely not a very good analogy, but there is no other situation like that of Taiwan in the world so it's kind of hard to make any sort of analogy work =_=

[hbuchtel]

Boy, that 圈子圈套 is pretty poisonous stuff. (or at least it seems to be from the quotes above) I guess I'm just not a fan of heavy nationalist 'preaching to the choir' kind of stuff.

It is worth mentioning that there are many people in mainland China who are accustomed to thinking of PRC and Taiwan as being separate countries. A desire for eventual unification, however, seems to be common to all.

[imron]

accustomed to thinking of PRC and Taiwan as being separate countries

Separate countries, or separate "systems"?

[Flying Pigeon]

Free Texas!

[hbuchtel]

Separate countries, or separate "systems"?

I would say separate countries. I base this on often hearing (in lectures, classes and conversations) Taiwan appear in a list with " . . . 等国家" at the end.

Of course, this could just be a habitual way of speaking - it is difficult to tell what people really think. The answer really depends on the social situation and how the question comes up. I imagine it is not a question that many people feel on firm ground with - on one hand you have the nationalist education and viewpoint that everybody is exposed to and expected to hew towards, and on the other hand you have the fact that Taiwan has its own government, military, flag, etc.

[OneEye]

Taiwan has its own government, military, flag, etc.

Passports

Also, currency, language standards, education system...and on and on. But many Taiwanese will still say "No, we are Chinese." From what I've been told by a lot of people here though, fewer and fewer people think this way. Apart from teachers of Chinese as a foreign language, they're all Pan-Blue.

[Meng Lelan]

There is a saying here that Texas is a whole other country.

[daofeishi]

Aside:

but there is no other situation like that of Taiwan in the world

Nagorno-Karabakh vs. Azerbaijan springs to mind as being very analogous. Western Sahara vs. Morocco and formerly Chechnya vs. Russia as well.