CHENG and CH'I (help plzz!)

[zachareeh]

So I've been studying Sun Tzu's The Art of War for awhile now and I keep coming back to the commentary on the concept of cheng and ch'i.

3

To ensure that your whole host may withstand the brunt of the enemy's attack and remain

unshaken—this is effected by maneuvers direct and indirect.

We now come to one of the most interesting parts of Sun Tzu's treatise, the discussion of the CHENG and the CH`I." As it is by no means easy to grasp the full significance of these two terms, or to render them consistently by good English equivalents; it may be as well to tabulate some of the commentators' remarks on the subject before proceeding further. Li Ch`uan: "Facing the enemy is CHENG, making lateral diversion is CH`I. Chia Lin: "In presence of the enemy, your troops should be arrayed in normal fashion, but in order to secure victory abnormal maneuvers must be employed." Mei Yao-ch`en: "CH`I is active, CHENG is passive; passivity means waiting for an opportunity, activity beings the victory itself." Ho Shih: "We must cause the enemy to regard our straightforward attack as one that is secretly designed, and vice versa; thus CHENG may also be CH`I, and CH`I may also be CHENG." He instances the famous exploit of Han Hsin, who when marching ostensibly against Lin-chin (now Chao-i in Shensi), suddenly threw a large force across the Yellow River in wooden tubs, utterly disconcerting his opponent. [Ch`ien Han Shu, ch. 3.] Here, we are told, the march on Lin-chin was CHENG, and the surprise maneuver was CH`I." Chang Yu gives the following summary of opinions on the words: "Military writers do not agree with regard to the meaning of CH`I and CHENG. Wei Liao Tzu [4th cent. B.C.] says: 'Direct warfare favors frontal attacks, indirect warfare attacks from the rear.' Ts`ao Kung says: 'Going straight out to join battle is a direct operation; appearing on the enemy's rear is an indirect maneuver.' Li Wei-kung [6th and 7th cent. A.D.] says: 'In war, to march straight ahead is CHENG; turning movements, on the other hand, are CH`I.' These writers simply regard CHENG as CHENG, and CH`I as CH`I; they do not note that the two are mutually interchangeable and run into each other like the two sides of a circle [see infra, ss. 11]. A comment on the T`ang Emperor T`ai Tsung goes to the root of the matter: 'A CH`I maneuver may be CHENG, if we make the enemy look upon it as CHENG; then our real attack will be CH`I, and vice versa. The whole secret lies in confusing the enemy, so that he cannot fathom our real intent.'" To put it perhaps a little more clearly: any attack or other operation is CHENG, on which the enemy has had his attention fixed; whereas that is CH`I," which takes him by surprise or comes from an unexpected quarter. If the enemy perceives a movement which is meant to be CH`I," it immediately becomes CHENG."

I know this site advises against getting tattoos of chinese symbols, but I am considering doing exactly that. Which is why I really want to make sure I find the correct symbols, so I don't make a fool of myself to the first person I meet that can read chinese. So my question is; What are the correct traditional chinese symbols for "cheng" and "ch'i" in this context?

P.S. I do not have any fundamental understanding of the chinese language so the google translator is all but useless for me and I can't seem to find the information anywhere using searches. Please help!

Thanks,

Zacharee

[edelweis]

This page suggests the Chinese equivalent for your quote is "三軍之眾，可使必受敵而無敗，奇正是也", which is far above my level to understand. (I'm not even sure I quoted a proper sentence here.)

However a little below that, they translate the sentence: 凡戰者，以正合，以奇勝 as "In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory."

I take that to mean that your CHENG is 正, and your CH`I is 奇.

[zachareeh]

Thanks eledwis.

also i plugged the opening line into google translator and got

為了確保您的整個主機可承受敵人的攻擊中首當其衝，仍矢志不渝，這是演習的直接和間接的影響。

is this at all a usable or proper sentence?

[zachareeh]

Thanks edelweis, but can you also include those sentences in english for me?

[陳德聰]

^ yep.

edit: oh wow, i didn't realize my post had come after two from the OP =_= the yep is for #2

[edelweis]

@zachareeh: please note, the Art of War is written in some old Chinese thingie (classical Chinese or something, some people here know better than me), which is different from modern day Chinese (the characters look the same, but the words and the syntax may be different).

This old Chinese is very concise, that's why the English translation looks much longer.

Google translate will never give you back the original text from the English translation, and the modern Chinese version from Google translate probably sounds terribly awkward to Chinese people.

The page I quoted has Chinese and English translation, with numbers in the English version, and ";" or ”。“ in the Chinese version. As far as I can tell, they correspond this way:

孫子曰：凡治眾如治寡，分數是也﹔

1. Sun Tzu said: The control of a large force

is the same principle as the control of a few men:

it is merely a question of dividing up their numbers.

鬥眾如鬥寡，形名是也﹔

2. Fighting with a large army under your command

is nowise different from fighting with a small one:

it is merely a question of instituting signs and signals.

三軍之眾，可使必受敵而無敗，奇正是也﹔

3. To ensure that your whole host may withstand

the brunt of the enemy's attack and remain unshaken--

this is effected by maneuvers direct and indirect.

兵之所加，如以碫投卵者，虛實是也。

4. That the impact of your army may be like a grindstone

dashed against an egg--this is effected by the science

of weak points and strong.

凡戰者，以正合，以奇勝。

5. In all fighting, the direct method may be used

for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed

in order to secure victory.

and so on...

As you can see, the translation has a whole paragraph for each sentence or part of sentence of the original text... I can't tell whether "三軍之眾，可使必受敵而無敗，奇正是也﹔", for instance, can be considered a full sentence and a suitable quotation.

[zachareeh]

Going back to the tattoo idea, how would the sentence be displayed? Is it read left to right like english or top to bottom like japanese?

[Lu]

You can do either. In the past Chinese was written top to bottom, right to left; nowadays it's usually written left to right, top to bottom. Sunzi would probably have written top to bottom, right to left. But the body part you want the tattoo on may also be a factor in the direction you choose. For example, on a leg, a top-to-bottom tattoo would make sense. Also I think it would be a good idea to use traditional Chinese (as opposed to simplified) for this text. Edelweis has been using traditional already.

Last but not least, if you haven't thought about this long and hard yet (especially whether you are 100% sure you'll still like this idea in 20 or 30 years), please do so.

[zachareeh]

Oh and you guys don't have to worry about me getting the tattoo next week or anything, I still intend to do alot of research and opinion collecting. I also want to let this thread mature for awhile so if anyone spots any inacuracies in anything anyone tells me plz let me know.

[zachareeh]

i just stumbled on this after coming back to my tattoo idea. it was on the first page of google, so i thought i would share a link to a picture of the symbols in case they find this with the same idea i had.

http://take5colors.com/img/history-06.png

[Shelley]

I think you understand that although these may be characters with a different meaning in classical Chinese (and this may the meaning you want) they also have a meaning in modern Chinese.

Zheng1 正 = first month of the lunar calendar , first moon

Zheng 2 正 = straight, upright

ji1 寄 = odd number, fraction

qi2 寄 = strange, queer, remarkable, astounding or to be surprised or astonished.

So taking any of these in any combination doesn't really make sense.

It may mean something in classical Chinese but people may not recognise it as this and get entirely the wrong meaning.

As I usually say to people thinking of a tattoo - before you ink, think and then think again and again. You do seem to have given it some time but still, be sure

[陳德聰]

I actually think that 正 on one shoulder and 奇 on the other is not that ridiculous.

Shelley, I don't think anyone would get any sort of "wrong meaning" from a tattoo that says 正奇. I don't know that you are really in any position to say what does or doesn't make sense from your dictionary point of view. Without reading the back story, it effectively means absolutely nothing to me. Which is interesting seeing as that is generally what the tattoos of strangers mean to me without knowing their back story.

[Hofmann]

正奇 is a word, but the example in #10 is pretty ugly.

[Shelley]

What word is it Hofmann? I have looked and looked and can't find any words with this combination of characters.

@#12 I think that was what I was trying to say, as a stranger without the back story the tattoo could be meaningless. I think that this is a problem with a lot of tattoos. I was only posting exactly what my dictionary said so that the OP had the info to help make a decision.

I don't know what you mean by " I don't know that you are really in any position to say what does or doesn't make sense from your dictionary point of view." I didn't feel I was trying to argue with the dictionary

[OneEye]

It took me all of about 15 seconds to find 正奇 in a dictionary. An online one at that, no need to resort to paper.

You can't simply look up two individual characters in a dictionary and determine whether or not they'd "make sense" if used in combination. If the word exists and is written with those two characters, then they "make sense" together as that word. I don't think I could ever say with any certainty that a word doesn't exist in Chinese, though if it doesn't appear in 漢語大詞典 or the like, then it's probably a pretty safe bet. I think sometimes you'd do well not to make such statements if you're not sure.

[Shelley]

Please don't get the wrong impression. I didn't mean it didn't exist, I said I couldn't find it in several dictionaries, paper and electronic. I looked them up in combination and singularly, and couldn't find anything. This is a not comment on whether or not it exists but more on my inability to find it and wanting help.

I thought this forum was for people learning Chinese and for us to all to try and help each other.

I am only trying to learn and understand.

I take part in these discussions to broaden my knowledge and maybe help others.

I try to remember to add a caveat that I may be wrong and I am still learning, not necessarily in those exact words but that sort of thing.

Perhaps I should be more explicit.

My level of Chinese is obviously not as advanced as yours and when I have reached your level then maybe it will take me only 15 seconds to find it too, but till then I will obviously take longer and struggle.

[Shelley]

New signature added to help with this problem

[Glenn]

It depends on the dictionary. It's not in the 國語辭典, for instance. That makes me wonder if it's a mainland thing. I have no idea, though. Still, I always find it odd when a word is in a bilingual dictionary but not a monolingual one.

[OneEye]

Still, I always find it odd when a word is in a bilingual dictionary but not a monolingual one.

I linked to a monolingual dictionary above. Which bilingual one did you find it in?

It's probably not a very common word, to be sure. It's not in the 辭源 or 辭海, at least not in the editions I have.

Shelley, it has nothing to do with my Chinese level compared to yours, which, apart from what you say in your profile, I have no way of knowing. I simply knew where to look. Though if you'll notice, your post had the wrong character (寄 instead of 奇), which may have affected your ability to find it. You somehow ended up with the right definition though.

You were essentially just making your best guess above, and there's nothing wrong with that. My beef was the way you presented yourself in post #11. Not as someone who was unable to find it and wanted help, but as someone stating a fact.

[Glenn]

Well, this is interesting. I'm not sure how to feel about this, because I did read it in the dictionary you linked to, in Chinese, and understood it well enough, but when I was commenting, I think I forgot that I had done that and went with my impression that what I remembered zdic being was a bilingual dictionary, and totally forgot that I had just read the definition in Chinese. So... that's kind of weird. Is my Chinese reading comprehension getting fairly good, or is my memory getting that bad?