Children learning Chinese purely through exposure to media - possible?

[creamyhorror]

From time to time I encounter non-native speakers of English (mostly on the Internet) saying they learnt English from watching TV in English (usually cartoons) as kids, and in some cases from reading websites/forums on topics of interest. These people have been mostly European but some were Asian and others South American. I'm pretty sure their parents spoke little/no English, so their learning was purely self-done, and their home environment didn't support their use of English.

Example:

I learned most of my early english from TV. I grew up in the Netherlands, speaking Frisian at home and Dutch at school. At the time dutch tv did not offer much programming aimed at children, the more interesting cartoons to be found on cable tv were on english language channels. I would tape Transformers episodes and watch them over and over.

Later on I started consuming other media (video games + video game magazines, american comics), so that by the time they started teaching english to me at school I was already relatively fluent.

[Learning English by watching TV] works really well if you are a kid. You get really solid foundations then and you gradually improve.

This is why its important for your kids to watch Cartoon Network in English. I think this is how I and a whole lot of other 20-somethings learned the language.

What would it take for a non-Chinese-speaking child to acquire Mandarin or Chinese ability this way? To be honest I find it hard to imagine for a few reasons:

1) There's a comparative lack of really interesting Chinese media to consume: America has cartoons, there are many English websites covering all sorts of topics, etc. Without a strong pull, children aren't going to want to learn the language. Their friends aren't going to find it cool enough to speak at school.

2) Chinese script has a very steep initial learning curve: you can't learn to read it as easily as alphabetical languages. This makes reading Chinese subtitles hard, which I imagine can hinder learning a good deal - how do you figure out what is being said, once you go past the most basic cartoons?

3) Chinese is more different from the child's home language than English is, and is therefore harder to learn. The grammar structure may be quite different; tones may be hard to perceive if they're absent in the home language.

I'm curious to hear about any cases of children picking up some Chinese simply through exposure to media (TV, books, etc.), without any interaction with Chinese speakers. (I guess educational videos is sort of a grey area, but let's include them for argument's sake.) Has anyone heard of such cases, or even let their kids learn Chinese through exposure? How was it like, and what lessons and conclusions did you draw?

Relatedly, I'm always trying to expose my younger brother to Chinese media, but he has little interest overall, even though he does find for ex. Doraemon interesting. It seems to just be too difficult for him, probably because he doesn't have the level of Chinese necessary to understand age-suitable material (i.e. that actually matches his level of maturity). This is a different problem, one that most language learners face. I'm currently giving him interaction time with native speakers via Skype...hope it works.

[anonymoose]

1) There's a comparative lack of really interesting Chinese media to consume

I think this pretty much sums it up. At least as far as television is concerned, there is very little by way of interesting (from a child's point of view) programming, educational or otherwise. I'm not really sure why that is, but perhaps because children are supposed to spend their whole time at school or doing homework, so do not have time for television. It's a pity, really, I think, because television can be a valuable educational tool if used in the right way.

[gato]

How about Cantonese-speaking kids learning Mandarin by watching TV? It's probably not that hard to do. The distance between Dutch and English is probably similar to that between Cantonese and Mandarin.

[creamyhorror]

I think this pretty much sums it up. At least as far as television is concerned, there is very little by way of interesting (from a child's point of view) programming, educational or otherwise. I'm not really sure why that is, but perhaps because children are supposed to spend their whole time at school or doing homework, so do not have time for television. It's a pity, really, I think, because television can be a valuable educational tool if used in the right way.

There is dubbed and subtitled Japanese anime. We used to get Dragon Ball and Doraemon in Taiwanese Mandarin when we were kids (in Singapore). I think that's what my more Chinese-speaking friends used to watch. But they grew up in Chinese-speaking families anyway.

So let's say we could expose a kid to a lot of dubbed cartoons (I think I've even seen Cartoon Network dubbed in Mandarin). How well would it work?

How about Cantonese-speaking kids learning Mandarin by watching TV? It's probably not that hard to do. The distance between Dutch and English is probably similar to that between Cantonese and Mandarin.

True - I do wonder how those kids find it, assuming they haven't learnt any Mandarin at all.

Do you think language distance is a major factor here? What about for kids who are speakers of Romance languages, or unrelated Asian languages, or Eastern European ones? The effect of language distance should be less pronounced.

Hopefully someone has an example or three of a child who consumed some media in a very different language and gained a basic understanding. Could be any Chinese language, or any pair of languages at all; it would be interesting to have a few data points.

[edit]: I forgot computer games. Considering how addictive some of them are, and how they're essentially all in English, it's no surprise I read a comment from someone saying that games like Monkey Island practically taught him English. Would games in Chinese be enough motivation for kids to learn characters? Somehow I doubt it...but maybe it's worth a shot.

I also found a study that shows at least short-term correlation of exposure to English TV with improved performance in that language:

Incidental foreign language acquisition from media exposure

[rob07]

I did this. I have no Chinese background and taught myself how to read at home learning only character meaning and not pronunciation so I could read novels. After reading a few novels I went from a speaking ability of zero to being able to have meaningful conversations with very patient Chinese people using simple language and plenty of workarounds mostly through watching Chinese TV series and reading the subtitles.

I had done a 1 month intensive course at BLCU right at the beginning when I started learning to read, but by the time I had finished learning how to read and read enough novels that was years ago and had been wiped from my conscious memory. At about the same time as I started watching TV I also enrolled in an after work course for absolute beginners - this was just two hours in the evening once a week after work for 8 weeks, starting from ni hao and tone drills, which I found helpful. After watching I think two complete TV series I went to China for 3 weeks for 1 on 1 tutoring. I had four hours a day of class, 1 hour was pronunciation and the other 3 hours I was by that stage able to mostly fill with free conversation (with trained teachers obviously). I should also note that when I was learning to read I wrote the pinyin on my flashcards in case I wanted to learn to speak later; although I made no conscious effort to remember the pinyin as well as the meaning of each character, I generally did, particularly as it made looking up compound words in the dictionary much faster.

[flynnfrogg]

Actually, creamyhorror, I have been informed by several friends that I have recently made while walking in Ponggol Park that they acquired their ability to speak and listen to Mandarin purely from watching TV dramas. Of course, they are NOT at all literate (ie they don't claim to be able to read nor write). And of course their own basic tongue (they speak entirely in Teochew (a Minnan sub-dialect?) helps them to understand Mandarin.

Flynn Frogg

[msittig]

I would be careful about saying "there is a lack of interesting media" when you talk about children. Kids find different things entertaining than adults, My daughters chomp at the bit to watch 摩尔庄园，开心超人，小神龙俱乐部，etc, as we limit their TV time to between 4pm and dinner.

This thread is becoming more about adults though, and that might be different.

[Michaelyus]

The converse, that it is possible to be exposed to a language and never learn it, even during childhood, is also absolutely true. I was exposed to a little bit of Tamil from a young age consistently through my childhood, but have understood and still understand none of it. Mainly because radio shows can be very boring, and generally give no clues as to what's happening; and I never got to hear any good songs. The one thing I did gain I suppose is that I can tell the difference between (colloquial?) Tamil and languages of north India fairly accurately. Other Dravidian languages I'm not so sure...

[WestTexas]

I met a Mexican guy who spoke completely fluent English. He knew all sorts of really obscure words too. He said this was from watching lots of English language cartoons as a child. Personally I wonder if these people aren't exaggerating just a little though. Perhaps they watched some English TV as a child, picked some of it up, then studied it more in school? This seems more likely to me, especially considering how many countries have English as a mandatory subject in school.

I forgot computer games. Considering how addictive some of them are, and how they're essentially all in English, it's no surprise I read a comment from someone saying that games like Monkey Island practically taught him English.

Kind of related, I have met two Chinese IT guys who could do all sorts of IT stuff in English, reading all the messages in Windows and setting things up etc, but they could not speak a work.

[imron]

reading all the messages in Windows and setting things up etc,

Probably not reading all the messages, just knowing what the equivalent message/text is in Chinese when you perform a given action. I used to do the same thing all the time helping people fix problems with their Chinese Windows before I could read Chinese.

[陳德聰]

It's really important to outline what general ages of children you are thinking. Children and adults learn languages in completely different ways, and even children are learning different things at different times in their development.

[Silent]

From time to time I encounter non-native speakers of English (mostly on the Internet) saying they learnt English from watching TV in English (usually cartoons) as kids, and in some cases from reading websites/forums on topics of interest. These people have been mostly European but some were Asian and others South American. I'm pretty sure their parents spoke little/no English, so their learning was purely self-done, and their home environment didn't support their use of English.

I've my doubts that they learned English from (only) TV, but watching TV definately will help. I at least would be highly surprised if they didn't have at least a few years of formal English education in school. It may easily be 5 or more years. I had 5 years compulsury English lessons starting from middleschool. The generation only a couple of years younger then me started English classes in primary school. This is for the Netherlands, but in most (west) European countries it won't be that much different.

For your examples they seem all in their twenties. For that generation most of their parents will have had some English education in school too and many will know a decent amount of English. In other countries it may be different, but in the Netherlands, and I think most of scandinavia TV is subtitled so exposure to English (American pulp series and movies) with a simultaneous translation is huge!

If really young children get enough exposure from the right type (comprehensible input) they will most likely pick up a fair amount of the language. However use is an important factor for really learning a language. Getting fluent from just TV will therefore be quite unlikely. I feel a major benefit of exposure at young age is that the sounds and rythms already become familiar. This may be a very good foundation to build on when starting to study the language.

[Takeshi]

I have one friend who claims to have learn Japanese purely from media exposure.

His parents/older brother are highly into Japanese anime, games, etc and this had a big influence on him, with everyone in the house consuming Japanese media and everything being there for him. He is a heritage Cantonese speaker, and has been to Chinese School so he knows how to read and write, which probably helped a lot.

He has been playing Japanese games pretty much all of his life, and at first didn't really understand much and was just playing the games, but later and later learning more and more. I guess because he already knew Chinese characters, he was able to look at the characters first and guess/remember their meanings, probably first for navigating menus, and later for reading text. Only later with more exposure to anime and modern dubbed games did he learn to be able to pick up speech. (He is still much worse at listening than reading I'd figure.)

I tried talking to him in Japanese once for a few words, and he has a very strong accent/uncomfortable speech, but you could communicate with him. Either way, he has little problems consuming media in Japanese now.

For example: I remember one time when we were playing Vesperia, there was this puzzle question in the game, and an on screen keyboard popped up that you had to enter the answer in. I didn't get the puzzle, but he did, and told me the answer, but had difficulty using the on screen keyboard so I had to enter it for him.

Also, I have another adult friend who is extremely vigorously learning Japanese—to the point that she always plays Japanese radio/textbook tapes at home, or watches Japanese TV, and basically has Japanese-related stuff all around the house. Her daughter has never studied Japanese herself (and claims to have no interest in it/hate it), but one time when I was talking with her mom and some other Japanese friends in front of the daughter, she was like "don't think you can use Japanese as a secret language; I know what you guys are talking about me now". We were all surprised.

She understands a few basic phrases, but generally cannot speak at all, with the exception of a few taught set phrases that you have to really really force her to get her to say; because she is shy I guess. (Some of her mother's Japanese friends just talk to her in Japanese and through actions/context she often understands what they want.)

[malanting]

Chinese is not as popular as English, so there are not enough learning materials out there. The most important factor is whether a child has interest in it. I learned English through expansive reading and listening. But I wouldn't have learned as much if I hadn't showed an interest in the language. Besides, there're so many American TV series over the Internet that learning materials is not a problem. Then again, there are increasingly more materials for learning Chinese. (In fact, in terms of media exposure, it's easier to find Chinese films or TV programs because piracy isn't much of an issue here. Many TV stations let the audience watch live online for free against the paywalls in America.)The only difference may be that there aren't American volunteers translating the scripts and make English subtitles.

However, I don't think reading Chinese subtitles is any harder than reading English ones. Because, either way, you have to know the words. You can't understand them based on the alphabet. Although writing Chinese is quite difficult, reading them isn't that hard. (Like looking at a picture). That explains why I can read traditional Chinese characters even though I can't write them without making mistakes.

So it is possible. But only if the child has the interest and is willing to spend large amounts of time reading and listening.

[malanting]

How about Cantonese-speaking kids learning Mandarin by watching TV?

Cantonese is just one of many dialects of Chinese. Cantonese-speaking kids learn Chinese at school and read Chinese characters. I speak Shanghai dialect at home but standard Chinese in public places.