Mandarin or Chinese?

[malanting]

Here is a weibo posted by 大山(a well-known Canadian here who speaks Chinese like a native):

http://weibo.com/1779875541/y5qV1C8Iu

加拿大媒体咋连“中文”都不知道怎么翻译了！他们不敢直接说Chinese，总以为需要说明是Mandarin还是某地方方言以免得罪吴、闽、客、湘、粤、蜀、赣等语区的朋友。殊不知written in Mandarin、Mandarin websites这样的词看着是多别扭。怎么始终搞不明白口头语和书面语之间的关系嗫。本砖一声叹息。

I've noticed that many people here use Mandarin instead of Chinese. That really sounds weird.

Note:

This thread was split from one of my earlier reply posts. Out of context, it would seem that I'm academic about this. But I was replying to tell the original OP (who posted his video and the Chinese script) that 我喜欢说中文 is enough, there's no need in saying 我喜欢说普通话 (it turned out the OP chose 普通话 over 中文 only because he was asked to do so by the organizers.)

[imron]

Often, in places where there are large overseas Chinese communities, using "Chinese" to refer to the language is not really specific enough, and differentiating between Chinese languages by stating 'Mandarin', 'Cantonese' or some other Chinese language is often necessary.

While it's true it's not really required when talking about the written language (which is basically just Mandarin anyway), readers and authors alike probably don't have enough knowledge about the Chinese languages to make the distinction.

[malanting]

Often, in places where there are large overseas Chinese communities, using "Chinese" to refer to the language is not really specific enough

readers and authors alike probably don't have enough knowledge about the Chinese languages to make the distinction.

Maybe. But I don't think of Shanghai dialect when someone says "Chinese". Just like you won't say "talk in RP".

[imron]

Just like you won't say "talk in RP".

Correct, but the reason for that is RP means Received Pronunciation. The difference between Shanghainese and Mandarin is far more than just pronunciation. So just like I differentiate between say Spanish and Portuguese (which are far more similar than say Mandarin and Cantonese) I also have no problem with differentiating between Mandarin and other Chinese languages such as Cantonese, Hakka, and so on. Which is not to say I always do, there are plenty of times when I use 'Chinese' to mean 'Mandarin', but there are also plenty of situations when it is more accurate and more appropriate to make the distinction.

[malanting]

陳德聰

As for 上海话 and 普通话 differing only in pronunciation, that is simply false. Any assertion that 吴、粤、闽 and Mandarin are the same language is equally false.

I did not say they differ only in pronunciation, but mainly in pronunciation. I talk in 上海话 with my parents at home and 普通话 in public places. I don't find much difference other than pronunciation. It's like two Americans one from the South, the other from the North. You can't say what they say differs only in pronunciation, but it's still the same language.

[WestTexas]

It's like two Americans one from the South, the other from the North. You can't say what they say differs only in pronunciation, but it's still the same language.

Except that the American from the south can understand the American from the north perfectly well, and vice-versa, which isn't true for a Mandarin speaker listening to someone speak Shanghainese. Any serious (western) linguist will tell you that Mandarin, Shanghainese, and Cantonese are not the same language at all and that the idea that 'Chinese' is a language rather than a language family is a myth put out by the government to encourage unity. The fact is Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are considerably more similar and have far greater mutual intelligibility than Shanghainese, Mandarin, and Cantonese but are still considered separate language. You could say the same for Spanish and Portuguese.

[malanting]

WestTexas

Shanghainese, and Cantonese are not the same language at all and that the idea that 'Chinese' is a language rather than a language family is a myth put out by the government to encourage unity.

I don't want to get political about this. Some Chinese minorities do speak different languages. 朝鲜族 speaks Korean, 蒙古族 speaks Mongolian. Be it Shanghainese or Cantonese, it's written form is Chinese characters. Unlike Koreans (who used Chinese characters as a way of marking the pronunciation, like we use "zhongwen" to mark the pronunciation of 中文, before the Korean language is created) in Shanghainese or Cantonese, written words are the exact one being spoken in the dialect. I won't say I can speak four languages just because I can speak Shanghainese.

我--每-----天-- 都---- 听-----广---播

wo-mei---tian--dou--ting-guang-bo ---Mandarin

wu-mei----ti----zai---ting-guang bu ---Shanghainese

In my reply to 陳德聰 I used as example You can think of it as a Japanese speaking English with such a strong accent that even native speakers find it hard to understand him. (Of course, as a non-native he would use words that are a "liberal translation" from Japanese). Shanghainese and Mandarin are sort of like that.

Anyway, I was just expressing my opinion, I don't want to leave the impression of spreading political propaganda. Let's stop derailing the topic any further.

[陳德聰]

In Cantonese we do not speak the words that we write.

[L-F-J]

Be it Shanghainese or Cantonese, it's written form is Chinese characters...... in Shanghainese or Cantonese, written words are the exact one being spoken in the dialect.

Yes, they are Chinese characters, but they use special characters to represent the different pronunciation and grammar of their spoken language/dialect that wouldn't be used by all Chinese.

For example, in spoken Cantonese 唔系 is used to mean 不是 but is 不是 can also be pronounced in Cantonese as they do in songs, but they don't talk that way. An example in Shanghainese would be 啊啦 for 我们. They are Chinese characters to represent Shanghainese pronunciation and the meaning would be unintelligible to speakers of other Chinese languages/dialects.

A grammar example, both appearing in Cantonese and Shanghainese with slight differences but not in Mandarin, is 话俾你知 or 话俾你听 in Cantonese and 讲给弄听 in Shanghainese.

Standard written Mandarin words and grammar, such as in books, can be read using the pronunciation of other Chinese languages, but that would not be how those languages are actually spoken. Spoken Cantonese and Shanghainese can be written, and although using Chinese characters it would be totally unintelligible to other Chinese who are non-speakers of these.

[外国赤佬]

I guess, I'll post my favorite example of a Shanghainese sentence again.

[沪]: 侬哪能勿汏衣裳。

[国]: 你怎么不洗衣服。

How are they the same language? Shanghainese even has its own grammar particles (e.g. 啦).

But this is all irrelevant. As it's been noted many times, native speakers =/= linguists. Most of the Shanghainese won't be able to tell you how many tones their mother tongue has, some will tell you that it lacks tones, some will tell you that it has 4 tones because Chinese always has 4 tones, etc. Many won't be able to write down (in characters) a lot of even basic vocabulary that doesn't overlap with Mandarin. E.g. the word for "thing" in Shanghainese is actually 物件. Not 么件 or whatever.

[mcgau]

I talk in 上海话 with my parents at home and 普通话 in public places. I don't find much difference other than pronunciation.

Are you sure you speak Shanghaiese instead of Mandarin with your parents?

吾要收作龌龊衣裳。

帮吾拿格则芭比娃娃带把侬额小宁。

吾老好额，侬呢？

代吾帮拿窝里相问好。

伊长个是三角身胚，立辣海看上去瞎帅！

小伙子陪女朋友来白相

亨八冷打我搿趟旅程需要十二天

没噢，一直吾辣用。

侬现在辣辣做啥？

they differ so much in pronunciation, vocab, and grammar.

Let's make a poll here to see how much other Chinese can understand it.

[外国赤佬]

Let's make a poll here to see how much other Chinese can understand it.

Your examples are full of phonetic substitutions. E.g. it's not 格则, but 搿只. 搿 is similar to 这, and 只 is the universal counter word in Shanghainese.

I find it immensely irritating when people try to write down Shanghainese (or another Chinese language) using Mandarin pronunciation. Sometimes you come across really terrible examples, like 上海宁 or 切饭.

Here's a few proper examples:

请问，搿位女士是啥人？

明朝侬九点钟要到搿搭来个。

搿勿是侬个书，搿是我个书。

[malanting]

mcgau

Are you sure you speak Shanghaiese instead of Mandarin with your parents?

What do you mean? Of course. Many people are like me (speaking dialects at home and Mandarin in public) The example you gave marked the pronunciation of words in Shanghainese with Chinese characters. But although we say 吾, it's just how we pronounce 我 in Shanghainese. 侬 is how we pronounce 你. Of course others can't understand it if you write 吾,侬 instead of 我,你

For example, in English you still write "spring" although it's pronounced "sbring"

[malanting]

外国赤佬

the word for "thing" in Shanghainese is actually 物件. Not 么件 or whatever.

I think it's 物事

[malanting]

外国赤佬

[沪]: 侬哪能勿汏衣裳。

Same as #13

侬-你

勿-不

汏-洗

哪能 and 衣裳 is the lexicon difference. But one can still understand them (autumn and fall). I've said in my one of my posts that in Shanghainese 今天 is 今朝, 上午 is 上半天. (But if you write 上半天 like 赏半替, to make it closer to the pronunciation, of course fewer people can understand it, thus becoming a great example claiming that Shanghainese is a language in itself)

[L-F-J]

But although we say 吾, it's just how we pronounce 我 in Shanghainese.

But then 啊啦 is not how you pronounce 我们 in Shanghainese. Unless you argue that this is Ningbonese or something, while true Shanghainese says 吾尼. But as a native speaker of Shanghainese, which do you say? And does this mean at least Ningbonese is a different language?

[L-F-J]

I think most accurately, Shanghainese is a dialect of the Chinese Wu language.

[imron]

侬-你

勿-不

汏-洗

But how far do you take that example, e.g. the following works equally well:

you-你

don't-不

wash-洗

For reference, I'm not being totally serious there, but at what point does using different words with different pronunciation become a different language, especially as others (including myself) have pointed out other languages that have many similarities in vocab, pronunciation and grammar, but that are still classified as separate languages.

Another thing worth pointing out is that from what I've heard, Shanghainese has steadily been undergoing a significant amount of "Mandarinification", especially among younger people, many of whom end up essentially just speaking Mandarin with Shanghainese pronunciation.

[外国赤佬]

勿, 侬, 汏, etc aren't "just different pronunciations of 不, 你, 洗, etc". They're actual words. Some of them archaic, some of them specific to the region. Before the PRC era (or the 毛朝, how I like to call it), the schooling was actually done in 吴语. Moreover, the Japanese borrowed many words from this area (the so called 吳音). There was a time when the masses actually knew which spoken word corresponded to which characters. But the times fly by, and the languages are dying. Not many Wu speakers know of the 汏 character, for example. They will just confuse it with 汰. But it's a very old character (included in 说文解字!).

It still amazes me that the most Chinese (except for the HKers, I guess) can't wrap their head around the fact that the characters can have other, non-Mandarin readings. 物件 is not a random word, this is a very old Chinese word, older than 东西, and it's preserved in many of the Southern dialects/topolects.

[malanting]

you-你

don't-不

wash-洗

Except that the written form is English, not Chinese.

For reference, I'm not being totally serious there, but at what point does using different words with different pronunciation become a different language, especially as others (including myself) have pointed out other languages that have many similarities in vocab, pronunciation and grammar, but that are still classified as separate languages.

That's tricky. As far as if you can feel confident enough to call it a language in itself, I guess. I just feel something is not right if I say "I'm born with bilingual ability". I would feel as if I'm cheating if I write that I can speak four languages(Chinese,English,Korean then Shanghainese!) in my resume. If a serious linguist call Shanghainese a language, so be it. I would be happy to claim the additional language ability. What I was trying to say, however, is that how weird it reads and sounds if you repeatedly say "Mandarin" instead of "Chinese". Then it would become mandarin-forums.com. In most examples, people won't misunderstand just because Chinese rather than Mandarin is used. That's the reason why I posted the thread. I was not academic about it.

Another thing worth pointing out is that from what I've heard, Shanghainese has steadily been undergoing a significant amount of "Mandarinification", especially among younger people, many of whom end up essentially just speaking Mandarin with Shanghainese pronunciation.

Yes, for example 吾 in fact is just close in pronunciation to what we say. A lot of young people don't speak accurate Shanghainese. It happens if you don't speak it often.