Do you think Benny's explanation is plausible?

[GaryM]

I was interested in seeing how Benny progressed in learning Mandarin.

http://www.fluentin3...ennys-mandarin/

Reading through his comments, he seems to take the view that the Chinese language is no more difficult than others, and that it is cultural differences that have prevented him from attaining the same level as that which he has achieved in other countries.

This strikes me as a slightly curious explanation. Generally I find Chinese people very direct, very eager to communicate, and not shy in approaching you. I am not sure what cultural aspect he is referring to.

Does anyone else have any views on this? Are Chinese people in Taiwan (where he studied initially) less friendly and approachable than they are in mainland China or Hong Kong?

[renzhe]

Personally, I am convinced that all languages are of roughly the same complexity -- we're all human after all, have similar needs in terms of communication, so languages tend to evolve to make such communication efficient. The only major exception is the Chinese writing system, which is far more complicated than anything else.

At the same time, I am convinced that the distance between the languages you speak well and the target language is very important, as well as the distance between the cultures, because language is about more than grammar and vocabulary, and you need to understand people in order to communicate effectively. Benny disagreed on this, but it looks like he's coming around to see it the same way.

In any case, I don't think that another Benny thread will be a very constructive thing. It's good to know that an independent expert rates him at B1 spoken after 5 months and less in reading/writing, which is about what I expected. It seems like Benny is planning to continue his studies and is not deterred, and that's good for him.

[GaryM]

I did a quick search of the threads and could not find one that related to the results of his endeavours, only ones that related to his plans. I apologize if this topic has been dealt with many times previously.

renzhe: "Benny disagreed on this, but it looks like he's coming around to see it the same way."

Is there a reference to this somewhere?

renzhe: "I am convinced that all languages are of roughly the same complexity"

Presumably you are referring to modern languages? It is unlikely that Neanderthals had the same complexity of language. Language is only likely to have evolved to the extent that it is supported by cognitive abilities. So, for what you are saying to be true, you are essentially saying that modern humans irrespective of society have the same cognitive ability, and therefore the same capacity for language. This is generally true, given what we know about human development.

However, there is another factor. The complexity of a language is also a reflection of the evolutionary benefits that it denotes. For example, you might not expect a nomadic society, with no sedentary tradition, low technology base and small social groups to employ language as complex as that in sedentary, high-tech, high population density, socially complex societies.

In the end, I guess it all depends what you mean by "roughly".

[OneEye]

Are Chinese people in Taiwan (where he studied initially) less friendly and approachable than they are in mainland China or Hong Kong?

Ha! Taiwanese as a whole are some of the nicest, friendliest, most helpful, polite, approachable people I've ever come across. You can walk up to a random person on the street here in Taipei and ask a question about grammar, and not only get an answer (with a smile), but start up a whole conversation with a new friend. You can also ask a random girl crossing the street where she got her boots (my wife wanted to know) and end up on a shopping trip with her. Both of these things have happened to me. The mainlanders that come here have a reputation (earned or not, I'll let others decide) of being loud, rude, and obnoxious.

[jkhsu]

+1 for OneEye's comment on Taiwanese people being friendly. I was just there about a month ago and the people were in fact very friendly and helpful, more so than in mainland China. Regarding the reputation of mainlanders in Taiwan: I wouldn't be surprised if some do act this way. However, I was traveling with a mainlander who did not. :-)

[陳德聰]

The plausibility of the problems he faced being only cultural? I would rank that somewhere around 0 plausibility in that it is not reasonable at all to say that could be true:

Take for example, the fact that of the 8 languages Benny claims to be fluent in are essentially part of the same language family, 4.5 of the 8 are Romance (Esperanto is a lonely orphan with no family that pretty much mimics Romance languages to fit in), and 2 of the 8 are Germanic, giving an actual advantage in learning them from an English base since Indo-European languages will share many things from syntax, semantics, phonetics and phonology. No such advantage exists in bridging the gap between the Indo-European languages and the Sino-Tibetan languages. Already, it should be clear that Chinese will be comparatively more difficult for Benny to learn than Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, etc. based on the idea of linguistic distance. This was once a wishy-washy theory that has now reached a much more substantiated and quantifiable level.

As for languages being equally complex, that is simply not true, but complexity and difficulty are not the same thing. All children have an equal capacity to learn all languages. However, the equal capacity for language that we have when we are born is not necessarily still there after we are adults; the science is still out on that one. It is probable that Benny --like most people-- has a significantly lower capacity for language than he did when he was born.

The third factor is one that has been discussed quite a lot, but does not have a very strongly scientific basis. Benny chose not to learn to read/write. Although we know that in language development, good speaking skills can improve literacy, it does not logically follow that literacy translates backwards into good speaking skills. However, if literacy does have a significant effect on speech, then this would be another factor for why it could have been more difficult for Benny to reach C1.

Don't get me wrong, it's likely that there was quite a bit of cultural difficulty for Benny during his challenge, and although I have not searched for the part where he says it was cultural differences specifically that resulted in his slower development, to say that this could be true is very silly indeed, and would vastly oversimplify the situation.

[GaryM]

Thanks 陳德聰.

In case you are interested. This is what Benny wrote, these are quotes from the second and fourth messages on his message board;

http://www.fluentin3...ennys-mandarin/

(1) "The hardest part of learning Chinese for me was cultural, NOT linguistic..... Asians have a very different socialising culture that I'm not used to, and this meant I wasn't using the language as actively as I could have."

(2) "No, because if everyone in China spoke Spanish, then that cultural nuance would make Spanish harder. The cultural nuance is the problem. I had a cultural clash with French, but I got over it by upping my level in Quebec where they treat foreigners very differently. You could learn Chinese in Singapore for example and not have this issue - people there were more eager to talk to me."

With reference to the second comment, I presume he is comparing Singapore with Taiwan where he commenced his studies. Thus my question about Taiwan, as I have never been there.

Today I tried to post a polite question, asking him what particular cultural differences he was referring to, but for some reason my posts were not displayed. There may be some delay if comments are being moderated. I am not sure, I have never posted on his message board before.

[陳德聰]

@GaryM

Yes he moderates his comments, so there will be a delay until he has had time to read them.

And it looks like he wasn't saying that it was only for cultural reasons, just that the part he struggled with the most was the culture.

I don't really know how the mods feel about starting a new thread for this, although there was talk of re-opening the old Benny thread if there were any new developments... Well... 3 months have passed and little else is to be added to the discussion. B1, encountered unexpected hardships, not discouraged from learning.

Edited for afterthought:

As a general thing with language immersion in foreign countries, it is probably fair to say that getting used to the culture can take a little while, but in theory that should result in a specific amount of time the normal progress would be delayed by, so after this cultural adjustment begins to happen, the original 3 months timing should be achievable.

If he didn't adapt then that is a valid reason, but that is not a cultural problem so much as an individual problem.

[GaryM]

I wasn't aware of all the Benny threads, as I have not visited this board for a while. His latest comment was only a couple of days ago, so I was not aware that this topic was old.

I guess my confusion over his comments relates to his comment; "The hardest part of learning Chinese for me was cultural". I am not particularly gifted in interpersonal skills, nor am I polyglot. However, I have found most of the Chinese people that I have met to be very personable, frank, and very easy to get on with. I remain perplexed by his explanation. My guenuine interest in his experiences relates to my own desire to learn Chinese. I really have no other agenda.

Anyway.. I get the impression that people have no wish to discuss Benny futher. Best to leave it alone I suppose!

[Gharial]

(Maybe a bit off-topic, but what the hell): I've only vaguely followed Benny's quest, so I'm not sure quite what materials he used, or how hard he hit the books. I do however find it a bit puzzling that somebody who was supposedly so "serious" about learning a language would get picked up on stuff like the LTL Mandarin School teachers noted during their informal evaluation of him (or are these mistakes, and piddly little ones at that, that anybody can still make after however much study? Not that I'm too bothered by 'em meself!):

Grammar

Makes some mistakes, for example

得: 　我说汉语说不好 instead of 我说汉语说得不好

比：　今天比昨天很热　instead of 今天比昨天热很多

有点儿／一点儿：　这个一点儿贵 instead of 这个有点儿贵

These points or areas are addressed (or at least mentioned in passing or by way of example) in any decent coursebook or grammar. For example, Lesson 13 of my beloved T'ung & Pollard's Colloquial Chinese deals with all three (and no whinging about grammar terminology, please!):

得: a bit too much to easily summarize, but dealt with on pp 188-190 (of which unfortunately only pg 190, with examples of Speech Patterns, is available at the moment of typing in the Google Books preview: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false )

比: "Words marking degrees of comparison follow the stative verb: pàng yìdiǎnr, 'fatter by a little', kuài de duō, 'faster by a lot' ..... One cannot say e.g. *Tā bǐ tā dìdi hěn pàng." (pg 188) (Note that one can however say Tā bǐ tā dìdi pàng, 'He compared to his brother is [simply] fat(ter)')

有点儿／一点儿: "yǒu yìdiǎnr, 'a little, somewhat, rather', ... precedes a SV when no comparison is made: Tā yǒu yìdiǎnr qíguài, 'He is somewhat strange'. Like 'somewhat', yǒu yìdiǎnr is not used of positive or admirable qualities." (pg 188)

"Speech Patterns 7, 'Yìdiǎnr' and 'yǒu yìdiǎnr' contrasted - 1a. Jīntiān (bǐ zuótiān) lěng yìdiǎnr. 1b. Jīntiān yǒu diǎnr lěng." (Pg 194)

Now, I know that the more formal learning establishments and/or their publications might seem too, well, "formal" to some learners (even though there's a difference between formal per se and unhelpful), but just think, what if somebody spent 3 months, perhaps <GASP> at home, in the comfort of their armchair </GASP>, actually following, studying and committing a course like the above to memory - why, there'd be a fair bit of space (perhaps too much!) freed up in the blogosphere, for one thing! It seems however that parachuting into gung-ho triad noodle shop back-of-a-napkin minute by minute immersion reportage makes for a much more exciting "learning experience", for those who "live vicariously" through other's "exploits" at any rate.

"Rant" over.

[imron]

I think the other thing to realise is that one of Benny's stated purposes is to convince the world that languages are not difficult to learn. That's a very worthwhile goal, but the upshot is, you will be hard-pressed to find him saying that any language is difficult, because apparently saying a language is difficult discourages people from learning it. I don't necessarily agree with that, and think that while it might discourage some people, it will encourage others, and it also prevents people from having unrealistic expectations and then giving up after a few months when those expectations aren't realised.

With Chinese especially, which has a reputation for being more difficult for native English speakers compared to say French, German, or other Western European languages, he has also stated that he was determined to show everyone that it is no more difficult than any other language.

So, if you believe the language is no more difficult to learn, but you find that progress isn't perhaps happening as fast as you might like, then trying to find other reasons why that might be the case is not an unexpected response.

[gato]

Reading through his comments, he seems to take the view that the Chinese language is no more difficult than others, and that it is cultural differences that have prevented him from attaining the same level as that which he has achieved in other countries.

I think what he's saying (though he's not articulating it clearly) is that learning Chinese is harder with his methodology. His methodology is to parachute into a country and try to practice the language with people on the street. But he found people in Taiwan to be more reserved and weren't interested in talking to him that much, therefore his methodology hit a cultural barrier. He found it harder to engage strangers in conversation in Taiwan than in Brazil, which is entirely plausible. Brazilians are more openly gregarious and talkative than the Taiwanese. Maybe if he went the classroom route and spent more time one-on-one with a tutor, the relative difficulty in engaging strangers in conversation would have been less of a problem. But he did also have one-on-one tutoring sessions, so maybe he is using this as an excuse somewhat.

[renzhe]

As for languages being equally complex, that is simply not true

I wonder how you can be so sure.

I'm not sure, but I've found that with the languages I speak, they all balance difficulty in some aspects with simplicity in others. It's not always apparent at first, usually because of people's linguistic background.

For example, people often claim that Chinese has simple grammar (or "no grammar"), but that German grammar is very complex. I'd argue the exact opposite, but I've met enough people coming from a different background who had an easy time with things I found difficult. Different people get stuck at different things, IMHO.

Of course, I maintain that for a European, it's easier to learn a European language than Chinese, because of linguistic distance and (especially) vocabulary.

[xiaocai]

I think it is completely plausible in his own case. But everyone is different, many factors, such as one's previous exposure to other languages, personality, educational background can also affect one's language learning experience and outcome greatly. I would not surprise if someone give a totally different explanation as for why they have (or have not) achieved expected fluency in the target language in certain amount of time which also is equally plausible as his.

[WestTexas]

得: 　我说汉语说不好 instead of 我说汉语说得不好

比：　今天比昨天很热　instead of 今天比昨天热很多

有点儿／一点儿：　这个一点儿贵 instead of 这个有点儿贵

IMO these are all very minor mistakes. None of them interfere with comprehension. I find it completely believable someone who has studied 3 months seriously could make such mistakes. In fact, I think someone who has studied for a year or more could easily make such mistakes. Seems like the teachers were just nitpicking.

[abcdefg]

I looked quickly at Benny's summary page, dated May 29th, but have not followed his blog. Anyone know if there's a three-month video of him conversing so we can form some idea on our own of how he has done in achieving his stated mission goal?

That’s fluency as in being able to do most of what I can do in English, in social situations in Mandarin. I’ll still make some mistakes, but I won’t hold up the flow of conversations (on either my side or the person I’m talking to) i.e. conversational fluency rather than professional level fluency.

http://www.fluentin3...ndarin-mission

For what it's worth, I'm still struggling to meet similar goals to his after 5 years of intermittent study. Some days it works well and feels great; other days it doesn't and feels awful. Nobody to blame for the slow progress but Yours Truly. Don't think "cultural differences" have been a factor.

[Lu]

His methodology is to parachute into a country and try to practice the language with people on the street. But he found people in Taiwan to be more reserved and weren't interested in talking to him that much, therefore his methodology hit a cultural barrier. He found it harder to engage strangers in conversation in Taiwan than in Brazil, which is entirely plausible. Brazilians are more openly gregarious and talkative than the Taiwanese.

I've never been to Brazil, but agree with a previous poster and find people in Taiwan extremely friendly and willing to talk. I have repeatedly had long friendly conversations with complete strangers while waiting for a bus or subway. I think most people would have no problem finding people to practice with.

[gato]

abcdefg, you can see videos of Benny talking to John of Sinosplice and Jenny of ChinesePod in Chinese when he visited Shanghai after spending 3 months in Taiwan here:

http://www.fluentin3...hs.com/compare/

Benny’s 3.25 month video: questions that waste your time

April 13, 2012

http://www.fluentin3...com/chinesepod/

Review of Chinesepod & chat with co-host Jenny

April 18, 2012

Although Benny now says that people in Taiwan being relatively less openly friendly (compared to Brazilians) was one of the main difficulties he had, if you look at his own evaluations below at the 2-month mark and then at the end of the 3 months, you'd see that his main struggle was he was pushing himself so hard to reach the "fluency in 3 months" goal that he got burned out. The "cultural difference" argument might just be his rationalizing several months after the fact.

http://www.fluentin3months.com/pain/

Even two whole months into learning the language as intensively as I’m doing, I’m having these very difficult periods because of pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Once again, my brain felt like it was melting, and despite the comfort in doing the kinds of tasks I talked about yesterday, I feel like an idiot once again.

After the first hour-long class I was at the point where if I was the kind of person who smoked or drank, I’d be going for a puff or a shot. Instead, I opted to bang my head against the wall a few times.

http://www.fluentin3...s.com/mistakes/

Analyse your mistakes: An honest look at what I did wrong these 3 months

April 11, 2012

I would improve very quickly for three weeks and then I’d reach a saturation point. The entire last week of every month had no major jumps to another level, and I’d barely be able to focus enough to even study in less pressured situations. My energy was totally dissipated and I made very little progress in those weeks, apart from learning a bit of vocabulary or some grammar rules.

But I kept at it nonetheless and tried to force the Mandarin into my head. It just wasn’t happening, so I eventually (and reluctantly) gave in and would watch some silly Hollywood movie, give myself an “English break” and allow myself my official once-a-month English night-out, get a massage or something else that would finally make me feel better.

No matter how hard I tried, I ran into the same problem at the end of February, and wasted an entire week again. And in March, I was actually working extra hard in the days leading up to my last video update, so after that I reached saturation point earlier and learned a lot slower in the entire last two weeks of March. I was so exhausted from working up to the day I recorded that video, that I slept for 14 hours straight the day after I recorded it.

This ultimately means that out of the 12 or so weeks that I devoted to this project, an entire four involved me learning at a dramatically slower rate than I could have.

As for his methodology, not sure how he went about it with other languages, but here he did have regular sessions with tutors and teachers, online via skype in his first weeks in Taiwan, and then in-person, reaching as much as 3 hours of tutorial per day apparently. So he wasn't just learning Chinese by trying to chat up random people on the street. I don't know if he used formal lessons to learn other languages, but certainly he realized he would need intensive lessons if he wanted to reach his 3-month goal in Chinese. His methodology for this mission doesn't seem that different from what most students who come to Taiwan or mainland China do, except that he had more of a "deadline" pressure.

[li3wei1]

Just like to add my voice to the 'friendly Taiwan' vote, though my experience is from years ago. Never been to Brazil, so can't compare, but Taiwan was very, very friendly, often too friendly. I would find myself wishing the taxi drivers would just shut up and let me think sometimes. And if you spoke a few words of Taiwanese, they took it up a few notches.

Hong Kong, noticeably less so, largely because their English is all so good and they don't have time to be messing around with rudimentary Canto speakers. Mainland, a big difference between urban and rural.

[Gharial]

IMO these are all very minor mistakes. None of them interfere with comprehension. I find it completely believable someone who has studied 3 months seriously could make such mistakes. In fact, I think someone who has studied for a year or more could easily make such mistakes. Seems like the teachers were just nitpicking.

I agree WestTexas that it seems to be nitpicking by the teachers, if that's all they could find wrong. And I don't want to give the impression that I've got my nose stuck in grammar books the whole time and have agonized over this stuff too much. My point is merely that these things aren't (or shouldn't be) too hard to pick up from, or extrapolate on the basis of, a well-designed course, and that obviously the more you really know, the more you can then notice and successfully acquire. Plus I think one aspect of language study that isn't given enough due is the intellectual challenge, process, and satisfaction, and there must be quite a few "learners" who fail to make quite enough progress, and start fossilizing, ossifying etc due to having cut corners. (That being said, I think it is possible to reverse so-called fossilization errors, as even one's mistakes will have provided a mental corpus all of their own, albeit a skewed one LOL).

Edit: I've just taken a look at Benny's attempts to converse with John of Sinosplice. Not that much to write home about, is there?