The value of a good accent.

[Mactuary]

Dear fellow forumers,

I want to focus on pronunciation.

There are those who are satisfied by being understood by the natives, some want to be understood by everyone while others strive for native level pronunciation. I must say that the ideal goal of language learning should be to attain native level but then I understand that there are those who are forced to learn the language due to work or forced immigration for whatever reason.

My Chinese friend in Sydney has been living there for about three years and his English is quite 流利，for the most part I can understand him, but his accent is so atrocious to the point that it annoys me to listen to him. Now I want to ask whether this is just me or have others felt the same way?

I thought that I felt that way because English is my mother tongue and perhaps I have developed some special affinity to it, so others who speak it in a way below certain standard not worth listening to. But then after coming to China I've also become used to hearing Russian accented Chinese. There is one girl in my class whose accent is just as strong as my Chinese friend (forget the tones, what tones!), since I know enough Chinese to realise just how "unbeautiful" it is. So then I also get annoyed whenever I have to hear her speak.

Am I a jerk or what? The degree of annoyance is such that I avoid striking a conversation with these people. I don't talk to my friend unless I really have to or if he is the one who starts the conversation.

Another issue is that my level of tolerance depends on what accent it is (at least when speaking English). I've never been annoyed by Russian or French accents, but I get super annoyed by Chinese accents and to a certain extent Indian, even though the level of the former might be lower than that of the latter.

My level of tolerance is also dependent on the knowledge of the speakers' experience speaking the target language. I know that my friend has been in Sydney for three years, so I subconsciously use a certain standard to evaluate him, whereas I might have been impressed by someone with his level but have only stayed in Sydney for one year.

Does anyone know of any studies regarding this? I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I'm afraid that I make people feel this way when I talk to them in Chinese.

[陳德聰]

I don't think you're a jerk, I just think you have some misguided opinions about accents and so-called "standards", and for whatever reason, you allow them to shape how you behave towards and view others. At least you're honest, but hopefully you don't make this obvious to people around you, since that would be outrageously rude. And for good reason.

The idea that someone speaking English --a language that tries its best to mask phonemic and allophonic distinctions that native speakers don't even know exist in ridiculously inaccurate orthography-- has an "atrocious" accent after 3 years of living in an English-speaking country that has a history of anti-minority sentiment is not really that outlandish. Cut your friend some slack, it will take you likely the same time or longer to speak Chinese at his English level, especially if he is already "流利".

I can almost guarantee that you make some people feel this way when you talk to them in Chinese. I can think of one person I know personally who would refuse to speak to you in Chinese (and I don't even know what you sound like).

I'll get back to you on any relevant research I find with regard to reaction to accents. Off the top of my head, the first psychological phenomena I can think of that would even steer anywhere near this type of feeling is the uncanny valley.

[prateeksha]

While a bad accent could be a real hindrance in carrying out conversations that go beyond simple exchanges of courtesy, not talking to somebody just because they have an accent, IMO, is not a very bright idea. As much as Australians/Americans/British/etc. etc. have problems listening to Indian or Chinese accent, believe me it is the vice versa sometimes too. I think it is only a matter of not being used to a certain accent. The primary function of language is effective communication, and how can it be expected to fulfill if one of the parties involved has prejudices towards the other?

[creamyhorror]

Personally what grates on my (admittedly nitpicky) ear is poor grammar and distortion of phonemes. The mainlanders I encounter have varying proficiency levels in English, but there have definitely been times when I could barely comprehend what one of them was saying (although everyone else nodded along politely). The issue is that such people have learnt a relatively inaccurate pronunciation of English syllables, or have not bothered to actually pronounce words fully. (This applies to many of my countrymen as well, but our mispronunciations and grammatical manglings have become informally standardised as Singlish.)

When I visited a village in Jiangxi and attempted to teach a bit of English over a week to some elementary students, I realised one problem was that the teachers and textbooks had to rely on pinyin syllables to teach English pronunciation, and so every syllable got equal emphasis like in Chinese languages. I started getting the students to connect the English syllables and mouth them fluidly, having them repeat after me, and telling them that English syllables have varying speeds when connected into words. They managed to pronounce the words clearly in a short while, but a few days of coaching with no follow-up might as well be no coaching at all. I think this underlies the odd stress patterns we hear from some Chinese speakers of English. (The same issue applies to Japanese learners as well.) The mispronunciation OTOH comes from a lack of teachers to model their pronunciation on, and also relying on inaccurate pinyin transliterations.

I haven't personally spoken to many European speakers, but my impression of the ones I've met is that they generally have relatively good grammar and don't distort the phonemes so much -- in other words, they're more proficient in English.

My Chinese friend in Sydney has been living there for about three years and his English is quite 流利，for the most part I can understand him, but his accent is so atrocious to the point that it annoys me to listen to him.

IMO, if you actually value him as a friend, you should help him out and ask if he would like you to help correct his pronunciation. Then help reshape his pronunciation and stress patterns.

edit: I should say that I've encountered native English speakers with difficult-to-understand accents too and don't understand why some of them don't cater their speech to be more understandable to the foreigners they speak with. You have the right to speak in your own accent, but why not do the listener a favour and adapt your pronunciation a bit? Nonetheless this is relatively rare, and most native speakers I meet are perfectly understandable.

[Mactuary]

Don't get me started on Singlish, which is a mix of intended wrong grammar, wrong pronunciation and their being proud of it. (just my perception of it)

As to me being rude, I totally agree. But I can't control what I like and don't like, his bad accent is just like someone with bad body odour, my instinct would be to stay as far away as possible.

As to helping him, I do it all the time, everyday, every sentence. Maybe what really pisses me off is that he doesn't learn, not the accent itself. To be specific he would say, "I muster cooker some eggers." which would mean "I must cook some eggs.". I completely agree with:

English --a language that tries its best to mask phonemic and allophonic distinctions that native speakers don't even know exist in ridiculously inaccurate orthography

But how can he continually say "eggers" when no one else does, with the exception of his Chinese friends potentially (but with whom he would probably using Chinese to communicate anyway). I can make him say "eggs" while I'm there, but just like creamyhorror's experience, the next day he would say "eggers" again and I slap my forehead so hard... I'm good natured and have a deep interest in accents, and particularly like helping people "correct" their English pronunciation. It gives me untold pleasure when they finally pronounce something correctly because of my efforts. But what to do when they just don't learn?

I sincerely hope that I'm not like that after three years in a foreign country.

[Guest realmayo]

If a non-standard accent inteferes with the ability of the person you're talking to to understand you, it's a problem. But some people speak English with a foreign accent but in a way which is 100% understandable and which requires no extra effort on the part of a native speaker to understand it. The first case has room for improvement. Does the second case?

Also: I love listening to Korean-accented Chinese! But again, not too strong, not so much that it's difficult to understand what's being said.

[li3wei1]

The difference between eegs, oigs, eggs, heggs, and ayggs is accent. eggers is mispronunciation. Linguists, feel free to disagree with me.

I correct my child's grammar every time she says 'me and x did such and such', and think, when will she finally learn? But it took me a while, and it will take your friend a while.

There is no such thing as a bad accent, only different accents. Some can be grating to other people. Americans tend to find the English accent (or some of the English accents) high-class and/or sexy, while Brits find the American accent funny and/or annoying in various ways. I'm sure Chinese people from various regions will attach various meanings to the accents of various other regions. Me experience, though, is that a) they are very accepting of any accent coming from a non ethnic Chinese, and b) no matter how native your accent is, it will never overcome the fact that you're not ethnic Chinese.

[imron]

I think there are definitely different levels of acceptance for accents. It's not necessarily a country thing though, I can think of plenty of Chinese people I know with bad English accents, and also plenty of people with good English accents. Likewise for quite a handful of other countries too.

As to the title of the topic, I think having a good accent is very valuable. It just makes communication go that much more smoothly. In my opinion though, it's not necessary to have an accent indistinguishable from a native, but I think one should strive to have an accent that is clear and doesn't impede communication/understanding.

[xidi]

Hi there..

Yes one can get irritated by certain accents, but the fact that you get irritated, means you probably irritate someone...Now imagine if we all acted on our irritation, there would be no peace and we would look down on people more than we do now. Language is not a measure of class or anything of that sort. It is meant for communication. The reason why people start to force accents and sometimes sound 'fake' is because they are judged and condemned on their natural accents, which is sad. We need to diversify and understand that because of the different flexibilities of our speaking, clicking of the toungue ets we can't always pronounce words across the world the same. And let me end by saying that everyone has an accent, as long as you don't speak my mother tongue and I don't speak someone else's mother tongue, we all have accents. And we need to respect that.

[skylee]

"The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain."

[Silent]

not talking to somebody just because they have an accent, IMO, is not a very bright idea.

Why is that not a good idea? Language is meant for communicating. If communication fails due to a very strong/distracting accent what's the point of talking? Specially if more complicated issues have to be conveyed other solutions may be far more efficient. I'm not going to communicate for an hour with someone with very bad language skills if I can get the needed info in 5 minutes asking his neighbour.

Bad accents are of course not the prerogative of learners. Actually many native speakers have strong regional accents that make them hard to understand for learners and natives that are not habited to the accent alike. As such I feel the wish for a native accent is at best silly. IMHO the goal of language learning should be to be able to communicate with as many people and as effective as possible. That would ideally mean a neutral accent with clear pronunciation and native level vocabulary and grammar. You may even claim that after reaching an intermediate level there is more added value in learning another language rather then to put in effort to improve to an advanced level. But of course it all depends on your goals, on what you want to do with your language skills.

[陳德聰]

eggers is mispronunciation.

I think if we take into account the fact that an Australian would type "egg[er]s" to signify that a schwa is inserted into the pronunciation to break it into two syllables, it is quite consistent with the fact that many Mandarin speakers have trouble with complex onsets and codas (those which consist of more than one consonant sound), and is almost certainly a function of accent.

I correct my child's grammar...

I can hook you up with a few studies to show you how terribly futile it is to correct your child's grammar if you'd like

But what to do when they just don't learn?

Have you ever told your 'friend' how much it bothers you? I honestly think it's totally fine for you to be bothered by his accent, I just think it's really odd that you seem to be fixated on correcting it when apparently he functions at a fluent level of English. Perhaps he, like many other people, knows that his communication is effective enough already and is only humouring you when you try to get him to pronounce things differently.

Tbh, I feel like this whole prestige accent business is all prescriptivist crap.

[creamyhorror]

Tbh, I feel like this whole prestige accent business is all prescriptivist crap.

One could say it's descriptivist to observe that prestige accents exist precisely as shown by the OP, and that non-prestige accents may be discriminated against. What one chooses to say beyond that, however, may be prescriptivist.

[carlo]

I think we also have a natural tendency to imitate the way other people speak. I do it all the time, regardless of the language. It’s a subtle thing — you talk with someone, and after a while find yourself subconsciouly imitating a certain speech rhythm, word choices etc. I suspect it’s a way of “creating rapport”, as NLP practitioners say. You naturally tend to mirror other people’s gestures, posture, tone of voice etc to make the other speaker feel at ease and create a “conversational space”. It’s like a dog wagging its tail - pure animal instinct.

So maybe a markedly different accent makes it harder for both of you to create rapport, and relax into the conversation. There may be hundreds of other, unknowable, reasons why it is difficult to communicate with someone else — maybe he reminds you of that kid who used to bully you at school, or he doesn’t like what you are wearing. And if you are physically attracted to someone, for example, you may “feel” that you are communicating pretty well even when you are not (I’m only half joking). But having a similar accent sure helps, and as long as we can do something about it, it’s probably a skill worth developing (within reason).

Btw, I don't think it happens only with prestige accents: even when talking to... the working classes, the same instinct takes over.

[prateeksha]

Quote

not talking to somebody just because they have an accent, IMO, is not a very bright idea.

Why is that not a good idea?

Because if more and more people start growing intolerant of difference in accents, then most of us would never be able to make any difference in spoken Chinese as we leave our work and family behind to come to China and learn from the locals. Of course because the accent is so horrible, why should they bother wasting their time on listening to random laowais butchering their mother tongue?

[Silent]

Of course because the accent is so horrible, why should they bother wasting their time on listening to random laowais butchering their mother tongue?

You clearly don't get the point I try to make. It's all about added value. Why would you put in a lot of effort in the communication if there is an easier/faster way the get the added value you want? What's the use of wasting hours talking to one person with bad language skills while the same utility can be had much easier by talking to his neighbour?

Maybe the added value of communicating with the bad accented one has added value, then off course you speak with the bad accented one. If the person is for some reason interesting or can provide you with info that is hard to get otherwise sure you communicate with him. Sure you won't turn him away if he makes a small inquiry. If you just need some time to spend over a beer fine, no problem. But at a conference where there are dozens of people that can provide me with very valuable info and idea's there's little point in miscommunicating with the one with bad language skills.

[imron]

I don't think this is about prestige and non-prestige accents either. There are plenty of non-prestige accents in English that are perfectly acceptable when it comes to understanding. What happens with foreign learners however is that typically they make pronunciation mistakes that come across as awkward and sometimes unintelligible to native speakers (this goes for any language and not just English), because they are differences that no native speaker, prestige accent or not, would make (I'm looking at you 'usually').