What does 耐何 mean in this sentence?

[anonymoose]

What does 耐何 mean in the following passage (taken from here)?

曾 有人做过实验，将一只最凶猛的鲨鱼和一群热带鱼放在同一个池子，然后用强化玻璃隔开，最初，鲨鱼每天不断冲撞那块看不到的玻璃，耐何这只是徒劳，它始终不 能过到对面去，而实验人员每天都有放一些鲫鱼在池子里，所以鲨鱼也没缺少猎物，只是它仍想到对面去，想尝试那美丽的滋味，每天仍是不断的冲撞那块玻璃，它 试了每个角落，每次都是用尽全力，但每次也总是弄的伤痕累累，有好几次都浑身破裂出血，持续了好一些日子，每当玻璃一出现裂痕，实验人员马上加上一块更厚 的玻璃。

　 　后来，鲨鱼不再冲撞那块玻璃了，对那些斑斓的热带鱼也不再在意，好像他们只是墙上会动的壁画，它开始等着每天固定会出现的鲫鱼，然后用他敏捷的本能进行 狩猎，好像回到海中不可一世的凶狠霸气，但这一切只不过是假像罢了，实验到了最后的阶段，实验人员将玻璃取走，但鲨鱼却没有反应，每天仍是在固定的区域游 着它不但对那些热带鱼视若无睹，甚至于当那些鲫鱼逃到那边去，他就立刻放弃追逐，说什么也不愿再过去，实验结束了，实验人员讥笑它是海里最懦弱的鱼。可是 失恋过的人都知道为什么，它怕痛。

I understand the overall meaning, which is basically that the shark's attempts to catch the fish were futile, but I don't really get the structure of the sentence, or the specific meaning of 耐何 here.

Any other examples of a similar usage would also be welcome.

Also, is 奈何 equivalent to 耐何?

[creamyhorror]

My guess:

耐何这只是徒劳

= [对付]这只是徒劳

= [对付][玻璃]只是徒劳

The dictionary says 耐何 is equivalent to 奈何, but I don't know if you can write 无（可）耐何.

Examples from Google, which fit with the 对付·应付 definition:

难道无情殿里的金牌杀手都不能耐何这贱人，还是无情殿还没出手呢

顺丰,我耐何不了你?

[skylee]

I think it is a typo. I would write 奈何 and would think that 耐何 would be regarded as a mistake if it appears in a student's homework or test answer. It can be found in the Taiwan MOE dictionary in the 末耐何 entry, though.

[Glenn]

In that case, would 奈何/耐何 be separate from 這只是徒勞? In other words, would the latter be a description of the former in the sentence under question? Could it be rephrased as something like 這沒有辦法，只是徒勞（而已） or something?

[skylee]

Yes, 奈何 means 沒有辦法.

In the sentence above, it could be replaced by 即便如此 (despite so), or even more simply by 然而 as 徒勞 contains much of the meaning of 奈何.

[anonymoose]

Thanks for the replies. I still don't really get it though. I mean, if we used 即便如此, we could put a comma after it, and the sentence would become "即便如此，这只是徒劳", but would it be acceptable to do the same in the original sentence, thus "耐何，这只是徒劳"? I guess what I'm really asking is what is the grammatical role of 耐何 in the sentence.

I actually saw the original sentence in a book, and just found the same passage in a google search. The book also used 耐 rather than 奈, but I agree that it would make more sense using 奈. This page explains the difference.

[skylee]

It functions in the same way as 無奈 (adv). See word 66 explanation 2 here -

66.無奈 [wu2nai4], (1) adj., helpless, feeling frustrated (oft. 無奈何 cannot do anything about it, see 奈 之何 12.01); (2) adv., unfortunately: 無奈他不聽話 unfortunately he would not listen.

[creamyhorror]

<p>

It functions in the same way as 無奈 (adv).

[edit: I lost my post here while trying to edit it, so I'll just type something else]

So 奈何 can directly replace 无奈 in a phrase like 无奈他不听话? I find it a little confusing how 无奈, 奈何, and 无(可)奈何 all seem to be able to function the same way.

[anonymoose]

OK then. I think I get it now. Thanks skylee.

[anonymoose]

Verb meaning 对付·应付, in a nutshell.

In the sentences you quotes, yes, but it wouldn't fit in the original sentence.

[creamyhorror]

In the sentences you quotes, yes, but it wouldn't fit in the original sentence.

Well, I guess it depends on whether a glass barrier can be 耐何ed in vain.

最初，鲨鱼每天不断冲撞那块看不到的玻璃，耐何这只是徒劳，它始终不 能过到对面去

..., [对付][玻璃]只是徒劳, ...

I guess I wasn't so convinced about the adverbal usage because Zdic doesn't list it as a use of 奈何. The Lin Yutang dictionary doesn't explicitly list the adverbal "unfortunately"/"helplessly" usage either:

2. 奈何 [4[/color]he2], (1)adv., why, for what reason: 奈何不跟我說話 why refuse to talk to me? 奈何騙你母親 why deceive your mother? (2) (detachable v.t.), esp. in negative form, to make difficulties for (person): 不能奈我何 or 奈何我 could not do anything to me; (detachable v.t.) 不能奈何他 or 奈何他不得 could not take measures against him; (3) 無奈 or 無奈的，沒奈何 or 無可奈何 a helpless situation; hence adj., hence adj., “helpless,” “sad,” “forlorn”: 奈何天 sad, helpless days; hence adj., 奈何橋 bridge to Hell where the deceased spirits have to pass.

But the ultimate test is how a well-educated native speaker would understand it, so I defer to skylee in her understanding.

edit: After further googling I see that skylee is right. Wrap it up, folks, nothing to see here

[skylee]

What about the examples from Google I posted%sF

难道无情殿里的金牌杀手都不能耐何这贱人，还是无情殿还没出手呢

This usage is the same as that listed as explanation (2) in #11.

Explanation (3) in #11 does say it means 無奈 or 無奈的. I can't argue with you about whether it is an adverbal use.

[anonymoose]

My conclusion is that 奈何 just means 无论怎么办. This seems to fit all the other similar examples that I've found:

女孩的哭声愈加凄厉，她努力挣扎，奈何逃不过强有力的手掌束缚。(source)

奈何我已没有了回头路。(source)

奈何逃不过她们善于发现的双眼，紧接着一整天都是关于梳子寄托的情感。(source)

奈何一切都是假设，家里没给我这个机会(source)

一见面就紧张 奈何女孩都爱成熟稳重男(source)

英语语法之-好的赏 记住几个经典的感情片段，环绕它来写奈何考都不怕 抒情的，学会所有。(source)

他们想要好好的保护太子，奈何胳膊拧不过大腿(source)

万贵妃几次试图给太子下毒，奈何计划都流产了，她实在是不甘心，虽然不甘心也无可奈何，她知道太子背后的靠山，所以要想对付太子，下毒是不行了，只好寻找另一条路了。(source)

奈何我们都不是好赌之人，口袋里也没有足够的银子来撑起我们走进赌场的底气，所以只得收起相机，继续寻找海滩。(source)

However, it sometimes seems to mean more like 无论如何，不管怎么样, as in the last example above.

And sometimes it is used just to mean 怎么:

但是有时候Word文件不管奈何样都打不开，对于word。 (source)

形貌一种小动物，也和些其他内容的作文一样，不能八面见光，想“流水账”似的说个没完，必然要说出重点，有的可以偏重些小动物的习性，无论奈何写，都要抓住典范，突出重点，详细形貌。(source)

[creamyhorror]

I think it's a very flexible word. Sometimes it can be substituted by 可惜, other times 可是，and also 怎么，不管怎样，无论怎么办，如何，没办法, etc.

The set of examples I collected was:

病难治，换药还是无奈它何

他就是不答应，你又奈他何！

还是奈何他不得，就这么让他溜了

奈何他的专业水平跟职位要求相差太大，自然就落聘了。

想跟男友分手~奈何他卻趕不走

I like your examples, which give a wide range of usage. The 奈何我们都不是好赌之人, ... 所以只得收起相机 one in particular has a tone of regret, which seems prominent enough that 可惜(不管怎么样) might be considered a substitute in some cases.

Good discussion.

[skylee]

And sometimes it is used just to mean 怎么:

但是有时候Word文件不管奈何样都打不开，对于word。 (source)

形貌一种小动物，也和些其他内容的作文一样，不能八面见光，想“流水账”似的说个没完，必然要说出重点，有的可以偏重些小动物的习性，无论奈何写，都要抓住典范，突出重点，详细形貌。(source)

I don't think you should trust or follow these two examples.

Read the article of the second source. I find many of the sentences not acceptable, such as "让更多的人相识它"、 "就是统一种动物"、“要让本身喜好的小动物活龙活现地出此刻笔下，写之前，应该先细心调查一番，相识它们的形状特点和糊口习性。 “、“糊口习性就是小动物爱吃什么、奈何吃；爱在哪儿睡觉、奈何睡；喜好做什么、奈何勾当等。差异的动物有差异的糊口习性，好比刺猬要蛰伏、小兔子不会走只会蹦、狗的嗅觉和听觉出格迅速、大公鸡天天早起打鸣等。调查时，除了抓住特点看细心外，还要出格留意它们有哪些与众差异的处所，这样便于写详细、写活跃。“, etc.

[anonymoose]

Thanks, skylee, for confirming.

[anonymoose]

creamyhorror

Your examples are good, but somehow I feel the usage in the first three is different to that in the final two. The former seem to be used as verbs, whilst the latter are used as, what, adverbs?

[creamyhorror]

@anonymoose: Yes, I was just collecting different common usages and dumping them on my Anki card. I agree with your identifying them as verbs and adverbs (the first two are a verb+object (奈·何) compound I believe, and the third is a separable phrase 奈何不得).