Do Chinese children ever go against what their parents say

[gato]

5000 years! Or do you mean that things were different for the first 1000?

[陳德聰]

The first 1000 years were great chaos, and any reference to various kingdoms are really just metaphorical references to unruly children who were eventually reigned in by their parents after a millenium of teenage rebellion.

[pprendeville]

Going to try get round to replying to posts as soon as laptop gets fixed. Have a Dell XPS M1330 (don't get me started on that model) and it just went bust after replacing the motherboard for the umpteenth time. Too awkward to be replying by phone. Thanks for all the feedback. Really useful to hear others experiences and much better than the Google machine. I especially agree that Chinese (generalisation coming up but one I've based on lots of encounters with various Chinese people) are reactive. Don't stick your finger into that open socket that was burned because of poor electrical fitting, don't play with the rusty scrap metal which is lifting in the yard beside the factory which you are renting to someone on your house property, don't eat the food that has dropped on the floor which hasn't never been disinfected - only washed with a mop that is dipped into the toilet to wet it etc etc.

My next thread must be about thing I like about China and rural life. I don't want to come across as hating every aspect of life I the countryside. I'm sure if we had our own gaff things would be a lot different. 

[Glenn]

Now if you could take a screwdriver and put it in the outlets and show some sparks.....

This had occurred to me as well...

[imron]

I'm guessing you're American and therefore grew up in the world of 110V where sticking metal in a power socket doesn't necessarily cause instant death. The world of 240V however is very different.

I remember having a conversation once with a US flatmate of mine. He was talking about how in school they used to do thing like stick paperclips in power sockets for dares, to see the sparks and/or get electric shocks and so on. I was staring at him with incredulity and said "but, but how did you not die". Growing up in a 240V country, we are taught from an early age that sticking metal in a power socket == death and is not something you should ever do. "Nah", he said, "you just get a bit of shock, but it's fine".

Anyway after some to-ing and fro-ing we hit the Internets to find out what was what, and while I can't find the exact page now, the crux of it was that a shock from 110v was not necessarily life threatening, but you'd better be damn sure to respect 240 volts.

[skylee]

But you have not tried it. You can't know for sure the info is true. Do try it.

[Glenn]

I take it China's 240V, then? Yes, I am American.

[imron]

Do try it.

Thanks, but I'm not feeling particularly suicidal today

I take it China's 240V, then?

I believe it's 220V, which is likewise not that advisable to be sticking metal things into.

[Silent]

I'm guessing you're American and therefore grew up in the world of 110V where sticking metal in a power socket doesn't necessarily cause instant death. The world of 240V however is very different.

I'm afraid you're misinformed. Plenty of people are exposed to 220-230 volts (the standard for wall-outlets) without any harm at all. Static electricty as occurs in dry winters conditions may run into 1000's of volt and pose no serious danger to people. There are (rare) people that survived lightning strike which may be many millions of volts. People also have died from 110V and I think 50Volts or even less (specially in humid conditions) can be lethal. I think the current or else the work (voltage * current) are more important factors then voltage alone. At lower capacities I think the main dangers of electricty is that a current runs through the heart and causes problems with the heartrithm. With higher capacities burnings are an issue too, people may survive the initial electrical shock and die shortly after due to severe burns.

[hbuchtel]

On an anecdotal note, I've shocked myself on average once a year (I'm an highly skilled and careful electrician ) doing various house repairs here, and although it is a very unpleasant (one might even say 'shocking') experience, it is far from fatal. This is on 240V in China.

I wouldn't think the same is necessarily true for children though...

[hbuchtel]

Why does it sound like you are being demanding and ungrateful under other people's roof? I know you would rather not stay there, but still I suppose your parents-in-law are the heads of the household?

I think the conversation has already moved beyond this point, but from my observations of Chinese immediate and extended families, when a son-in-law is visiting he is not a 'guest' in the sense of someone who should be careful not to tread on toes and who should act grateful for small acts of hospitality, but rather someone for whom the in-laws will make great effort to welcome and whose opinion carries quite a bit of weight.

A few qualifications: this has nothing to do with whether the person in question is Chinese or a foreigner; the son-in-laws will be ranked according to the age of their spouse; this may only apply to southern China; the age of the in-laws and whether or not they are retired is a factor.

I don't think the OP was overstepping any boundaries by asking for minor repairs to the house. I'm wondering if the refusal was simply a 'first refusal', and if the OP was more insistent it would have been done.

[imron]

I'm afraid you're misinformed. Plenty of people are exposed to 220-230 volts (the standard for wall-outlets) without any harm at all.

Yes there are people who survive exposure to such voltage and it depends on a number of factors.

Actually, it's the current that is more responsible for death, however Ohm's law tells us that for a constant resistance the higher the voltage, the higher the current. Wikipedia tells me that for less than 200V, the skin serves as the main form of resistance in case of electric shock. So in addition to higher voltages already causing higher currents, for shocks over 200v the resistance is lessened further and the lowering of resistance causes a further increase in current, and therefore an increase in risk.

Time exposed is also a critical factor, and at higher voltages your muscles are more likely to contract in a way that they seize up (due to the higher current), and so if you are poking some metal object into a socket you are more likely to involuntarily continue grasping that object due to the muscle contractions, therefore causing longer exposure. This will be less of an issue if say you just happened to touch an exposed wire with your finger and the muscle contractions that result don't cause you to stay in contact with the source of electricity.

Finally the location of the shock also plays a part. A shock on the leg is less likely to result in death because the current has less chance of passing through your heart on the way to the ground. If however the shock is on the hand, then the current has a greater likelihood of passing through your heart on the way to the ground, and this is what kills you.

In short, sticking a metal object into a 240v socket is far more likely to result in your death than doing the same thing with 110v. Which is not to say that 110v cannot be fatal, or that 240v is always fatal, just that you need to exercise far more care around 240v and that sticking metal objects (e.g. screwdrivers as recommended above) into wall sockets is never a good idea.

[skylee]

Re #31. Well I don't agree. A son-in-law who stays in his parents-in-law's place, whether temporarily or not, is a guest. A man can be a master and give orders in his own household. He should not do so in other people's place is all I am saying.

I have a brother-in-law who stays in my mother's place. I know what I am saying. As to "the son-in-laws will be ranked according to the age of their spouse; this may only apply to southern China;", I think there is little truth if the son-in-laws are in their parents-in-laws' place.

But let's not generalise.

[hbuchtel]

Yea, too much generalizing doesn't help.

I've give three specific examples:

The first time I ever visited my wife's parent's home I was actually asked to repair the plumbing (I'm better at plumbing than electricity ), and everybody was relieved because there hadn't been a Man (note the capitalization) in the house to do such things for several years.

When my wife's eldest sister's husband comes to visit he makes (or at least appears to make) all the decisions and pays for everything, and lays in a considerable stock of non-perishable items before he leaves.

When visiting my father-in-law's younger sister's household, it is actually the second daughter's husband who everybody looks to to finalize decisions and pay for large bills. The eldest daughter and her husband, who always look tired, apparently had a rough time when they were young and didn't finish their schooling, and now they have a much lower salary/position than the second daughter and her husband. The third daughter's husband smiles a lot and agrees with everyone.

All of these examples are from Hunan, from smaller cities (although not the countryside), and from households with no sons. Dunno how applicable they are to the OP's situation, but I enjoyed telling these stories anyway!

To repeat a suggestion someone made earlier, if the electric socket repairs were sort of bundled with a few other things (new furniture?) in a offer by the son-in-law to help fix the family house up a bit, I reckon it would go over pretty well.

[pprendeville]

to add to the list of things not to do: don't give energy drinks containing large amounts of caffiene and guarana to children

[pprendeville]

It was a very welcome break indeed that I had in Beijing week before last. Weather was lovely, not too hot and blue skies. Similar here in the village yesterday and today presumably because of the rain. Who’d have thought I’d ever be grateful for rain.

I ended up sorting out the cable/sockets myself. Can’t upload pictures here but basically I just used sellotape to shore up anything exposed and also to prevent the kids from pulling them down. Not the ideal solution as it’s not a longterm thing but its an improvement. For the remainder of our time here I’m just going to fix things as I deem necessary but there doesn’t seem to be too many physical things that are a problem. The kitchen was a bit of a write off when we got here and I paid 3000rmb to get that sorted. It is much better now with a tiled floor, replastered walls and a proper sink. I’ll post up photos when I get back home.

Our relationship at home and when we are with her parents is quite different. She seems much more level headed in Ireland and is capable of using logic while when we arrive at the in-laws home, their decision is mainly what she considers to be final. 2 examples, yesterday I suggested that we book a hotel near the airport in Beijing the night before we leave. We have an earliesh flight at 09:25 and it takes about 4-5 hours from here to the airport which would mean we would need to be leaving around 2am to be on the safe side. That means we would be travelling for over 24 hours with 3 kids under 3 which suffice to say would not be very pleasant. A cousin of mine, also with 3 kids (11,8 and 1 so more manageable), is married to a Thai lady and they were caught in a traffic jam due to an accident on the way to the airport in January this year and ended up missing their flights and it cost them €2500 to rebook. When I said this to my wife when we were in Ireland we agreed that we would prefer to pay the extra bit of money on a hotel than to pay full fares again to get home. However when I mentioned it yesterday that we book into a hotel the night before departure (this was before I’d read the news about the floods in Beijing) she told her parents who proceded to tell me I was losing my marbles and that to get to Beijing would handy. I then decided to see if our entire luggage would fit in the jeep that brother-in-law said would take them all no problem but turned out they wouldn't all fit so we would need a second car. A good job I checked. Note to self – always double check things while here. On a side note, I was looking for the seat belt fastener in the back seats and there was no sign of them and this was a brand new jeep. Even put my hands under the seat but couldn’t find them. So, then I was looking at this forum and saw the floods in Beijing thread and felt rightly justified to go ahead and book. Also, I am happy to travel to Beijing on a bus. I know how awkward it is to drive to and from Beijing in one day and don't want to cause wife's brother-in-law any hassle.

Another story from a few days ago. When I got back from Beijing my friend and I had been discussing having our own kindergarten for the kids for next year. He has a son and is expecting another child while we have 3 of our own and they are ready to start going to preschool. I’ll be back in Beijing next year as I’ll be doing my 3^rd year of college either in BLCU or Minzu university. Don’t think we can afford for us all to stay in Beijing so the alternative was for my wife and kids to stay here with her family. Recent incidents have turned me off this however and the idea of them staying in Shijiazhuang seems to make more sense as they will be relatively safer and the mandarin spoken there is more standard which would better for them longterm than if they go to school here. Anyway, when I mentioned this to wife she was not to happy at the prospect of not staying with family which I suppose is quite understandable. A few minutes later she returned all smiles after having mentioned the idea to parents and both agreeing to it. So my point is that outcomes to majority of situations depends on how wife’s parents react to suggestions. If they agree there is harmony, if they don’t agree wife is in terrible form.

Have you considered being proactive in minding your children at all times? It seems rather odd to have discovered that you essentially are living in a much more dangerous environment than you are used to, and rather than offend someone by going elsewhere, you would prefer to complain about all of the conditions that are essentially set in stone.

Almost impossible to be proactive in looking after children 24/7. You have to give them some bit of freedom and let their curiosity get the better of them. I won’t say I am necessarily complaining about all the conditions here. I use this forum as an outlet for a lot of my grievances which is good for my mental condition as I get some good honest feedback which helps me to see the bigger picture. For example the following reply makes perfect sense to me but I wouldn’t have thought about it until Silent mentioned it:

Relatively poor/uneducated people will see less dangers then highly educated people. It may very well be seen as no significant danger as few serious accidents happen, 'everyone' does it that way, other dangers are far more profound etc. Safety is a 'luxery' product. Safety costs money, or at least an investment to improve it. People that have relatively little money will view this investment differently from people that have plenty of money. The dangers of unprotected electric cables and the comfort of electric light may very well be (considered as) an improvement on the oil lamps used before.

Note: I'm not insinuating I'm highly educated and that in-laws are dumb.

you wife will always be on her parents team.

From 2 examples above this seems to be the case alright. Its good to know at least. I will just have to learn to change tack when it comes to things that could cause confrontation.

"Mister Lao, this is a great little house you have here in Golden Dogshit Village. I've really enjoyed being your guest over the past five weeks. As a small token of appreciation for your hospitality and kindness, I beg you to allow me to bring in an electrician to make a few tiny repairs. It would be my pleasure; it would make my wife and I so happy to honor you in that small way."

Brillant, absolutely classic. I wont forget that in a hurry. We have fixed the kitchen at least and I got the fella that owns the engineering works to get a new socket and install it. The other day I wanted to get a hand drill so I could put in some rawl plugs in the wall to take a couple of screws. The very minute I mentiond screws everyone said there was no need for them, use a nail and a hammer. I tried explaining to them that nails and hammers will ruin the nice new plaster work and I refused to back down and insisted on getting a drill. So, a friend brought one the next day and it was a five minute job. I think sometimes I have to stick to my guns and just let them get over their cultural habits of taking the easy way out.

Jbradfor – yes I see your point. She definitely doesn’t have any electrical repair experience so I suppose if her parents say it’s fine then end of story. Your comments are very interesting also. I’m married to the eldest of 4 daughters and I believe we were given the best wedding reception and have 2 rooms in the house. To be honest I couldn’t give a toss about what type of wedding we had or how many rooms or any of that. When you have kids, the first thing you’re interested in is their safety and I’ll take whatever comes after that. Safety is paramount as hospitals don’t come cheap here. Not sure how valued my opinion is here. I don’t have the communication skills yet to be able to take part in important conversations which lead to decision making. Have been pushing father-in-law to research more method for stroke recovery but he doesn’t seem interested. Tai qi and qigong seem to have had some success apparently (see another post relating to this subject) but he seems to have other ideas. Did manage to get the kitchen repaired though so that’s a start.

I did an electrical control systems course in 2009 and anything aboive 0.3 amps is fatal to humans. Sticking a screwdriver into a socket won’t have much effect as the handles are usually electrically insulated to prevent current from flowing but sticking your finger in I’m sure will a completely different effect.

[abcdefg]

That means we would be travelling for over 24 hours with 3 kids under 3 which suffice to say would not be very pleasant.

No problem at all. Just give them several cans of Red Bull and some loud noise-making toys.

[frankwall]

I'm glad you got most of that sorted out. As difficult as it is, you have to look past the parents and do whats best for your family. Do of course repay the parents by helping with handy jobs

[pprendeville]

Here's a pic and link to the dodgy wiring.

https://picasaweb.go...gCO7smrLT19jfJg

I just used some sellotape to sort out the wires and the socket was replaced but still jutted out due to the wire exiting at the back so I just used my trusty old sellotape again to bloack the gap.

On return to Ireland I asked the question of the taxi driver who was actually a plasterer by trade why he thought so many houses in rural China had the plaster flaking off near the bottom of the wall. He rekoned it was the fact that they were probably not using damp course screed at the base of the wall when it was being constructed. I'm guessing that there is not much planning done when constructiong a house in rural China and that most things are done on the spot such as this makeshift electrical work?

[abcdefg]

#39 -- That does look dangerous.