Sound of 瑞 vs. 睡

[Demonic_Duck]

I'm wondering about the comparative sounds of these two syllables, specifically two questions:

1) Is the sound denoted by Pinyin "r" simply a voiced version of Pinyin "sh" or is there some difference?

2) Assuming that it is, are 瑞 and 睡 otherwise pronounced the same? When my Chinese friend was teaching me how to say Switzerland 瑞士 ruìshì, the vowel of 瑞 sounded more like a proper "wi" sound than the Pinyin "wei" sound normally denoted by "ui". Am I just imagining this?

[Shelley]

I think they are completly different. r is r and sh is sh. I think the wi sound comes from the ui part not the r. Actual noise made would be something like rwishi. but i think you should go and find a pronounciation chart or mp3 and listen again carefully.

There is no reason I can see that r would denote sh sound.

Maybe your friend was trying to make it sound more like switzwerland if he knows what it is in english.

[edelweis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Initials

[陳德聰]

Nice!

As you can see from the chart edelweis posted in #3, the pinyin r alternates between ɻ & ʐ <-- The latter being exactly what you guessed, a voiced version of pinyin sh.

I'd never even thought about it really until now, so thanks for that.

I pronounce them both with the same vowel, as far as I can tell.

[Glenn]

So there you have it. According to Wikipedia, "r" is usually [ɻ] (a voiced retroflex liquid), and not a fricative, although it may phonetically be [ʐ] (a voiced retroflex fricative), in which case I'd say it's the voiced version of "sh". I'll wait for someone who knows more to come along and comment on that, though.

[Edit] Someone who knows more already came along, it seems...

[Demonic_Duck]

I think they are completly different. r is r and sh is sh.

Well yes, sure. But zh is zh and ch is ch too, and I think they have a similar relationship to r and sh. Edelweis' link seems to confirm that this is the case, at least for some speakers.

I think the wi sound comes from the ui part not the r.

I guess what I'm asking really for part 2 of the question is whether pinyin "rui" is in some sense a "freak syllable" in that the "ui" part of it sounds different to any other "ui" sound in Mandarin Chinese. Maybe this was just my ears playing tricks on me, and a soundbite I found of the syllable seems to disconfirm this hypothesis as it sounds more like "ruei" (r + wei), as would be predicted by the normal rules of pinyin. Possibly there's some variation between speakers? Unfortunately the Chinese friend has since returned to China, so it might be a while before I can hear her say 瑞 and 睡 for comparative purposes.

[edelweis]

regarding wei / ui, I just remembered something...

When I was in China, and barely able to say "nihao", I was suprised to hear Chinese people answer the phone with "oui", just like some French people do. Actually they were saying "wei", of course. But the intermediate vowel sound between w and i was so short, and the i so pronounced, that it sounded like French "oui".

[li3wei1]

But when French people answer the phone, it sounds more like 'weh'

[tooironic]

Let's not even get into 喂 as it is pronounced a hundred different ways depending on what region the speaker is from.

But this question about 瑞 and 睡 interesting. I'm not sure I have the answer, but I have noticed that the "ui" has two different, distinct pronunciations - it can very clipped, almost like an "ee" sound, or it can be elongated like "aye".

This also reminds me of 昆 kūn and 雲 yún. I've noticed their vowel sounds are quite different, though their pinyin spelling is much the same. What I've found is that 昆 kūn seems to sound like the other "un"s (論, 混, etc.), whereas 雲 yún seems to have a raspy, windy quality to it. When I first started learning Chinese, I'd pronounce 雲 yún just like the other "un"s, only to find myself being unable to be understood. E.g. - Me: 我去過雲南。Friend: 什麼地方？Me: 雲南。Friend: 哦，Yweeun南... Anyone else noticed that?

[pancake]

This also reminds me of 昆 kūn and 雲 yún. I've noticed their vowel sounds are quite different, though their pinyin spelling is much the same. What I've found is that 昆 kūn seems to sound like the other "un"s (論, 混, etc.), whereas 雲 yún seems to have a raspy, windy quality to it. When I first started learning Chinese, I'd pronounce 雲 yún just like the other "un"s, only to find myself being unable to be understood. E.g. - Me: 我去過雲南。Friend: 什麼地方？Me: 雲南。Friend: 哦，Yweeun南... Anyone else noticed that?

They are two different sounds. The yun of 雲南 is written ün in Pinyin-pronounciation charts.

EDIT: And when I started out, I would pronounce that sound like the German umlaut. It's actually supposed to be a "front-rounded vowel," so that's another thing to watch out for.

[edelweis]

@li3wei1: everyone does not say "ouais" (weh) when answering the phone, and especially not in all situations. Which is why I wrote "some French people".

I was referring to the formalish "oui" with a long i that you might utter, for instance, when you recognize the phone call as an expected professional call from someone you know (which was precisely what those Chinese people were doing at the time, adding to my confusion). Of course in very formal professional situations (say the front desk of a company or a hotel), you're expected to say "Allô" or "Hôtel XXX, bonjour" or whatever.

Anyway, tooironic is right that wei is pronounced many different ways... including different tones...

[creamyhorror]

This also reminds me of 昆 kūn and 雲 yún. I've noticed their vowel sounds are quite different, though their pinyin spelling is much the same. What I've found is that 昆 kūn seems to sound like the other "un"s (論, 混, etc.), whereas 雲 yún seems to have a raspy, windy quality to it. When I first started learning Chinese, I'd pronounce 雲 yún just like the other "un"s, only to find myself being unable to be understood. E.g. - Me: 我去過雲南。Friend: 什麼地方？Me: 雲南。Friend: 哦，Yweeun南... Anyone else noticed that?

Like pancake said, 'yun' is completely different from the other 'un' syllables like 'kun', 'lun', 'dun', etc. It's not pronounced like them at all, but instead like 'xun'. If they were spelled phonetically, they'd be 'xün' and 'yün'.

[WestTexas]

For me rui is the most difficult pinyin syllable to pronounce.