Yunnan minority languages

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This past weekend I went with Chinese friends to Mojiang 墨江, about 4 hours south by bus. It's a beautiful mountainous Hanizu region and I stayed three nights with a friendly Hani family. 哈尼族. They spoke local dialect with each other, but were kind enough to use Putonghua with me.

The weekend before that I went with different Chinese friends to Chengjiang 澄江 a little way out of Yuxi 玉溪 and stayed with a Yizu family. 彝族。 We were fairly close to the clear waters of Fuxian Lake 抚仙湖。 Same situation: they spoke dialect except when talking with me. They were also quite friendly and hospitable.

Both weekends I was trying to pick out some recognizable words and phrases, but had very little success. I've read that both languages have several branches and are not homogeneous. Neither sounded like what I usually hear in Kunming at the wet market or when talking with local natives. I presume that to be 昆明话。

I've lived in Kunming most of the last five years, but have shied away from trying to learn any dialect because my Putonghua 普通话 is still so immature and I thought it might confuse my simple mind.

Wondering if any of you old timers have just "picked up" some local dialect 方言 through casual exposure over time. Would also be interested in hearing pros and cons of learning some dialect. When is the "right" time to do that, if ever?

[gato]

I've heard that 彝族 is pretty close to Tibetan. If that's the case, it would definitely be very different from Mandarin.

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I have another Kunming Yi friend who is from Chuxiong 楚雄, west of Kunming, towards Dali 大理。She said their Yi dialect was closer to Tibetan than the Yi dialect spoken around Chengjiang 澄江。She also said she thought it had Burmese influences.

I did a Wikipedia look up and found this discouraging tidbit:

The Chinese government recognizes six mutually unintelligible Yi languages, from various branches of the Loloish family:^[8] Northern Yi (Nuosu), Western Yi (Lalo), Central Yi (Lolopo), Southern Yi (Nisu), Southeastern Yi (Wusa Nasu), Eastern Yi (Nasu).

I cannot personally imagine a situation in which I would need to learn one of these dialects unless I were to live in such a region long term. Perhaps if I often did business there, that might be an exception.

In both places, 彝族 and 哈尼族，I asked how to say 你好，再见，and 谢谢。I was told they have pretty much just adopted the Putonghua for these common phrases. (That's not based on scholarly research, only hearsay.)

[anonymoose]

As you probably know, outside of Kunming, things tend to be pretty primitive in Yunnan. Therefore, I can't imagine there are many foreigners residing long-term in Yunnan outside of Kunming. This is based on the fact that there are not as far as I know any universities providing language courses and therefore rules out most foreign students, and there is little by way of multinational business which rules out most expat workers.

I am certainly interested in the local languages, and would be very willing to learn some in principle, but the opportunity cost of relocating for a substantial period of time to a remote area just for the sake of learning a (pretty much useless) language means that I am unlikely to ever take the interest further.

From what I understand, none or few of the minority languages in Yunnan are from the same family of languages as Chinese, though as you pointed out, would to some extent have been influenced by Chinese. This just adds to the practical difficulty of learning such languages where, in the absence of any printed material, pretty much your only learning resource would be native speakers.

I have learnt some Shanghainese, which is fairly similar to Mandarin, especially as spoken by the younger generation. I find Shanghainese fairly challenging, particularly pronunciation, not least because of the lack of quality resources available for systematic learning. Practising with native speakers is of course essential, but using native speakers as a primary learning resource has its limitations.

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I don't think I will undertake that project. Have my hands full with standard Chinese.

In Kunming, native speakers of 昆明话 often add a "ga" sound on the end of things.

@anonymoose, Did you learn your Shanghainese just from talking with Shanghai friends? Was it something you set your mind to and made a conscious effort to do? Or did it just "seep in" over time, a word here and a word there, without any specific focused effort?

Practising with native speakers is of course essential, but using native speakers as a primary learning resource has its limitations.

Right about that. Important point.

[anonymoose]

@anonymoose, Did you learn your Shanghainese just from talking with Shanghai friends? Was it something you set your mind to and made a conscious effort to do? Or did it just "seep in" over time, a word here and a word there, without any specific focused effort?

It is definitely something I've made a conscious effort to do, though being rather busy with other things, not least focusing on Mandarin, I have not been that serious or consistent with it. I do think, however, I'd be motivated to make more of an effort if there were as reliable resources for Shanghainese as there are for Mandarin. As I mentioned previously, it can be frustrating when trying to learn from native speakers who often disagree with each other about the way things should be said. Having said that, the grammar is pretty much the same as Mandarin, so vocabulary and pronunciation are really the main challenges with learning Shanghainese.

[liuzhou]

Therefore, I can't imagine there are many foreigners residing long-term in Yunnan outside of Kunming.

Not so sure about that.

According to the National Bureau of Statistics of China (2010 figures), Yunnan was sixth on the list of provinces and municipalities with most foreigners, with a population of 47,396 (excluding short term tourists).

While a large number of these are probably in Kunming, I certainly know of several elsewhere. There are teachers in all the major towns and cities and there are HIV/AIDS specialists in Ruili and other border towns. Among others.

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I'm sure there are plenty of 老外 residing in Dali 大理 and Lijiang 丽江, as well as in Xishuangbanna 西双版纳。Some run guest houses, restaurants and bars.

@Liuzhou -- I know you live in Guangxi and I'm presuming you hear a lot of Zhuang spoken day to day. I also realize you have lived there a long time. Have you picked up some of the 方言? If so, is it something you were trying to do, or did it just happen organically over the years? I would imagine that understanding it (any dialect) might be easier than speaking it, but I don't really know that.

Here in Kunming I frequently get stumped when an old timer tries to explain something to me using 昆明话。Most frequent scenario is probably asking someone which bus to take when I don't know. I can ask the question easily enough, but can't understand the blinking answer.

Went with three Chinese friends to Luoping 罗平 east of Kunming in early spring to see the 油菜花。One night in town after supper we were walking around and wanted to find a toilet. Asked an old woman at a newspaper/magazine stand. She understood us, but none of us could even begin to figure out her answer. She was pointing down the block and then gesturing to take a right at the intersection. We all four laughed and thanked her. Walked on and asked someone else.

I think people who are new to China underestimate the prevalence of dialects.

[liuzhou]

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What I hear most often is the local 桂柳话 dialect which I do understand (most of the time). Yes, I sort of picked it up organically.

I also hear the Zhuang language a lot. A big problem is that there are two distinct, almost mutually unintelligible, dialects of Zhuang. Southern Zhuang is common around Nanning and out to the south-west, whereas Northern Zhuang is in the north and north-west. I'm kind of on the border and so, I hear both. I know a little southern Zhuang but not much. Greetings and simple stuff.

There are also many Cantonese (白话) speakers in Guangxi, especially in the south. Then there are the many Dong, Miao, Yao language speakers etc.

Fortunately, most people also speak 普通话 or 桂柳话.

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Congratulations on having learned some 桂柳话.

A big problem is that there are two distinct, almost mutually unintelligible, dialects of Zhuang.

That's one of the main things that discourages me from even trying to learn some minority languages or local dialect.

I suppose linguistic diversity is part of the charm of China, especially these places which have a large minority population, just like special clothing and special food. But I would be sunk as a tourist if they didn't also know some 普通话。

I've been told by reliable sources that at Kunming Minority University 昆明民族大学 some of the students arriving from remote villages must first take a course in how to speak Chinese before anything else. It is taught very much like a 对外汉语 course. They then have to pass a test something like the HSK before they can move on into their regular coursework.

[liuzhou]

Most rural students (and teachers) in minority areas only speak 普通话 as a second or third language. It's the same here in Guangxi.

When I lived in western Hunan in the mid 90s, new students in the local college had to communicate with each other by writing notes for the first couple of weeks until they got used to each other's weird pronunciation. It seemed every village had a different dialect or language.

By the way, Zhuang is a language, not a Chinese dialect.

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Yes, I miss-spoke. Should have realized Zhuang was a language.

Most rural students (and teachers) in minority areas only speak 普通话 as a second or third language. It's the same here in Guangxi.

One of the beneficial upshots of all that is that I now boldly use my "learner's Putonghua" on the street. It's often better than that spoken by the locals. It's my second language but it's their second language two, so we are equals to a certain extent. When they don't understand me, I don't automatically conclude it's my bad tones. The problem is often on the other person's end.

If I say it again and still draw a blank, I write it out on my mobile phone and show them how it looks. That almost always helps, at least for the younger generations.