Is 封建 really "feudalism"?

[tooironic]

I've noticed that 封建 is usually translated as "feudal" or "feudalism", but these words are rarely used in conversation in English, whilst in Chinese 封建 is a relatively common word, especially when describing people's way of thinking, e.g. 你的思想太封建了。(Literally: "Your thinking is too feudalistic!") or 她爸妈太封建了，上大学都不让她谈恋爱。(Literally: "Her parents are too feudalistic, they won't let her date while she's a uni student.")

But... when I look up "feudalism" in an English-English dictionary I get the following definition:

feudalism |ˈfyo͞odlˌizəm|

noun historical

the dominant social system in medieval Europe, in which the nobility held lands from the Crown in exchange for military service, and vassals were in turn tenants of the nobles, while the peasants (villeins or serfs) were obliged to live on their lord's land and give him homage, labor, and a share of the produce, notionally in exchange for military protection.

As you can see, that's a very Eurocentric definition. So there seems to be a bit of a gap between the two cultures in terms of how feudalism is conceptualised.

So, my question is, when the word 封建 is used in conversational Mandarin, are we referring to that kind of English/European system or is it something a bit different? Better yet, are there any equivalent words in English which can convey the Chinese concept of 封建?

Thanks!

[LyYenKhang]

It really just seems to describe the traditional Confucian culture the pre-dates not only Communism, but all Modernist (and usually Western) societal trends in the East the developed during the turn of the 19th/20th century.

"Old-fashioned" maybe.

[外国赤佬]

You can also say 古板. 封建 is a bit too strong of a word.

[fanglu]

I think, given 封建s association with Marxist discourse and the communist party, 'feudalism', which is similarly associated, is a good translation.

[creamyhorror]

I think "medieval" is a good (jocular) equivalent:

你的思想太封建了。 Your thinking is medieval!

But yeah the term seems to have evolved a bit into a general term for 'anachronistic' or 'out-of-date'. 古板 is better imo, as 外国赤佬 notes.

[fanglu]

I think "medieval" is a good (jocular) equivalent

I agree, this is good. Although, interestingly, it is even more Euro-centric than 'feudal'.

I guess it depends whether you are trying to make the English seem more familiar or more foreign to the non-Chinese reader.

[heifeng]

I usually just think of it as out-dated, backwards, old fashioned when I hear it...in a certain context

[Guest realmayo]

Marx's idea of history was that societies go through various stages, including feudalism, which is followed by capitalism, which is followed by socialism. I think the Chinese idea was that they went straight from feudalism to socialism, bypassing capitalism (looks like they're doing a lot of catch-up at the moment). So feudalism becomes short-hand for (edit: some aspects of) pre-Liberation society & thinking.

As for translating, is there a similarity in the opposite direction with, say, the word "renaissance"? Someone Chinese who sees a sentence about a "renaissance in English cycling", say, might consult his dictionary and start worrying about how 15th century Europe relates to bike racing.

[OneEye]

I have a feeling, though I'm not sure, that 封建 is used that way much more frequently in China than in Taiwan. I don't know if I've ever heard it used that way here. Probably has a lot to do with 馬克思主義. I usually hear 「太保守了」 or 「這是什麼時代？」 to express a similar meaning.

I'd think any good English dictionary would mention that 'renaissance' means 'rebirth' or that it can be used to describe an upswing in creativity in a particular field. Of course, we can by no means assume any Chinese-speaking learner of English is using a good dictionary.

[creamyhorror]

I have a feeling, though I'm not sure, that 封建 is used that way much more frequently in China than in Taiwan.

I kind of automatically assume this whenever I come across unfamiliar terms, and most of the time I'm right.

[Guest realmayo]

Similarly, OneEye, my Chinese dictionary (Wenlin) gives "backward" as one of the definitions for 封建.

[li3wei1]

I think 'republican' might be another example. It has meant different things in many different countries and times, from the US to Ireland to Australia to Spain, and many more I'm sure. Anyone familiar with only their own politics might be confused hearing the word used in another context. Politics has a way of stealing words and bending them to its own purposes.

[andysun731]

When you see "封建社会" or "封建制度", "封建" means "feudal". When you see "某人封建" or "某人的思想封建", "封建" means "not open-minded".

[calibre2001]

"Too conservative" comes to mind.

[Jose]

I think 'feudal(ism)', in the way 封建 is used in Mainland China, is typical communist vocabulary like, say, 'comrade', 'cadre', 'proletariat' and so on. The fact that such words are (or were) much more widely used in languages like Russian or Chinese than in English can be put down to the different political history that the peoples who speak those languages went through during the 20th century. Even if such words sound uncommon in English, I think it's better to stick to the conventional translation. Otherwise, the ideologically-charged nature of those terms and their historical relevance gets lost in the translation.

[renzhe]

Also, don't forget that China was feudalist as recently as 100 years ago. In Europe, this concept is quite distant and ancient (nobody remembers the medieval times), but it's much fresher in Chinese culture. Many of the works by Lu Xun and Ba Jin, for example, describe a feudalist society and are critical of it, and this is obligatory school reading. In Europe, nobody really thinks about it.

Another important aspect is that feudalism is closely associated with "old China", and traditions that were common in those times. Modern Chinese history and politics are strongly defined by the move away from dynastic monarchy and feudalism to a new society -- led first Sun Yat-Sen's KMT, then Mao's Communist party. Many of these old traditions (antiquated medicine, extreme Confucianism, poor position of women, etc.) don't necessarily have much to do with the feudal political organisation, but these two went hand-in-hand in China, and Communists lumped them all together. So when people refer to feudalism, they are referring to the historical period in China, a period that is considered antiquated and primitive.

[TToPE1871]

what is the idea behind the chinese word 封建 ? is this a new word to import a european marxistic idea into the chinese vocabulary? why are these two characters used ?

[tooironic]

I think that's a really good summary of the main underlying factors @renzhe. This is exactly the kind of background knowledge that I need to teach my translating and interpreting students. Cheers.