China and being slim

[joshuawbb]

Funny topic I know, just something in the back of my mind.

On the subject of slimness in China, what combination of factors would you say the relative ease of many Chinese (and people of other East Asian countries) to stay slim is down to? I know By saying 'ease' I'm generalising, it's not the best term, but I'm just commenting on the large amount of Chinese who I see are quite skinny.

Ask around and most discussions will revolve around lifestyle vs genes vs food type. In my opinion it's a misconception that all or most Chinese food is healthy - though with healthy being an extremely broad term and up for individual interpretation, let's drop the term for now. What's clear though, is that the food around me here in Xiamen would be considered quite fattening if you take oil content into consideration.

Obviously there's great variation in food depending on where you are in China, but here in Xiamen most Chinese around me including those I live or have lived with often use a lot of cooking oil. Home cooked food is usually fried in many tablespoons of oil, seasoned and then the whole mixture is poured onto individual plates. The oil serves as the seasoning base and is eaten with the dish. This is normal for most Chinese around me, but would be considered very greasy back in the UK. A previous roommate from Hubei might get through a whole bottle a week and was really surprised when I said I only cook with a tablespoon or two or steam vegetables. She said she couldn't understand how there could be flavour without oil.

All these roommates, male or female, joyfully eat until everything is gone, often filling themselves to the brim since it's considered good not to let food go to waste unless you can preserve it for later. I tend to eat until 80% full since since I will gain weight quickly if I eat more. Most of the Chinese people I know are very slim and light despite freely consuming this much, which brings me to my next point.

Back in the UK I could easily maintain a good healthy weight and lose weight freely if I chose because I generally kept a balanced diet and good exercise. However despite keeping the same exercise I have only gained weight in China when eating Chinese food, whether it's home-cooked or in restaurants. I'm still a healthy enough weight but as my parents will tell you I'm usually a little wider every time I visit home. But start cooking for myself and like magic I can control my weight again just like in the UK, with the same portion size, since I use oil minimally and often steam food.

That's the difference between me and my Chinese roommates. They can eat extremely oily food all day and remain very slim, whilst I can only stay at a healthy weight if I cut out the oil and cook for myself. i'm pretty convinced it's not mostly to do with lifestyle - I exercise well and besides, this is 2012, city workers nowadays often work in offices and have less time for exercise too. It's not portion control since they often eat much more than I can and I don't overeat, and in my opinion it's certainly not down to a notion of Chinese food being apparently less fattening or more healthy. Whilst it's absolutely no question that a diet of junk food will fatten anyone, healthiness depends on what you eat.

Do you think it's heavily down to genes and metabolism? I'm leaning towards this direction. After all, there certainly are Chinese who follow the same diets as other slim people and still end up chubby or fatter. Here I've only mentioned oil as an example to start the conversation; there's definitely much more to the table than that.

[character]

"Whilst it's absolutely no question that a diet of junk food will fatten anyone [...]"

Lose weight by eating junk food: Nutrition professor drops 27 pounds on 'Twinkie Diet' in two months

"Do you think it's heavily down to genes and metabolism?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18985141 seems to argue it's not metabolism.

Beyond genes/'gut' bacteria, is it possible you're getting more calories/carbs/sugars than your roommates? Do they skip meals/not eat snacks/not drink sodas? Is there an age difference?

http://grist.org/scary-food/2011-03-04-low-fat-diet-fad/

[Guest realmayo]

I think diet is understood much less well in the West (and perhaps everywhere?) than we think. Look at the US: ever since the idea of the food pyramid with lots of carbs at the bottom and only a bit of fat at the top became official policy, what has happened to the average weight in the country? Now, maybe there are other factors -- but it's worth remembering that what we consider orthodox ideas about diet are actually all very new. The idea that exercise can make you thin is a very new idea -- 50 years ago people thought the opposite.

I think the idea that eating fat makes you fat will be seen the same way as the idea that eating donkey penis makes men super virile. The logic is the same.

A view of diet I find convincing is: as hunter-gatherers we evolved to eat mainly meat and prize the fattiest parts of meat most of all.

As we settled down into large immobile populations we needed an alternative to meat as the main energy source: that was carbohydrates (farming wheat/rice). So ever since humans settled down they have eaten lots of carbs and only a bit of meat, unless they are rich.

Under both these scenarios -- lots of fat, few carbs; or lots of carbs and little fat -- people seem to stay thin.

But in the last 50 years or so in the west not only do we have plenty of meat and plenty of carbs, we also are bombarded with sugar, which is pure carbohydrate. We overload our system with extreme amounts of sugar which we would never have had while we were evolving, and it's this that causes weight problems down the line as the body struggles to deal with the sugar.

I have a feeling that people in China haven't been bombarded with as much sugar as we have in the West. I don't know why. Maybe it's partly financial: yes there are lots of sugary drinks now sold in China, and sugary-bakeries sprouting up, but I think these things cost more than their equivalents in the West. Plus, they don't really do desserts in China. If you thought you were getting a bit chubby in China and wanted to do something about it, it's very simple to just avoid sugar -- but in the West it's much more difficult to give it up.

[liuzhou]

Obesity is a huge and growing problem in China (no pun intended). The idea that a majority are slim just isn't borne out by the facts. It may have been 50 years ago, when people were dying of starvation.

[joshuawbb]

I understand what you're getting at, particularly with regard to fat not necessarily being unhealthy. My issue was that I can lose weight in China without a problem - but apparently only when I cook for myself. It's not that I stand by the motion that oil will definitely make you fat, but it seems the only big difference between my cooking and theirs is that I don't use much oil; when steaming then none at all. Could well be my own body type in comparison to theirs.

I can't say for certain naturally what my roommates diet habits are, but for myself, I don't seem to eat more than they do, e.g. I don't eat snacks much and might drink a soda once a month. Given that they really enjoy their meals they tend to ask me why I don't eat as much as them during lunch or dinner.

I can understand someone losing weight only through eating those twinkies because he did it on a controlled calorie deficit. I can't imagine the lack of balanced nutrition did his body any good though, and I'd expect most junk food is high in calories in comparison to portion size, so keeping the deficit might have kept him a bit hungrier than usual. Eating such a poor diet has consequences beyond fat visible on the outside, I'd be interested to see the effects on inner organ-hugging fat from a long-term junk food diet.

I avoid sugar in general, as I did in the UK whilst losing weight and don't drink sodas unless it's been given at a social meal. Of course I can't tell what my roommates eat or drink at other times, I could well be having more calories than them somehow. i just found it interesting how I can keep a healthy weight cooking myself but suddenly find it hard when it's them cooking.

Indeed obesity is a growing problem, but I'm just looking based on the people I tend to see around me each day. I'd think it fair to say there is a higher proportion of slim people in major cities compared to say, major cities in the UK, though of course the UK's obesity crisis is more developed than the current one slowly rising in China.

[imron]

Many popular Chinese dishes (e.g. 宫保鸡丁、鱼香肉丝 and so on) literally have fistfuls of sugar added to them, and quite a few others have several spoonfuls. To me that's far more unhealthy that being swimming in oil. You might think you're avoiding sugar, but if you're eating out, you're probably not.

[Guest realmayo]

Is it literally fistfuls? Last weekend I knocked up a decent 宫保鸡丁 which only had one tablespoon of sugar and it was definitely noticeable: I'd have thought if I ate a version which had much more sugar than that I'd notice, it would be obvious how sweet it was.

[liuzhou]

I think the amount of sugar in food depends on where you are. I've definitely noticed much more sweetness in 宫保鸡丁 etc in the north and east, than in the south, and certainly more than in Sichuan.

[Guest realmayo]

Interesting. I think I've only ever eaten it in Hubei and Sichuan. I wonder if the basic point holds, that most Chinese people (even limited to, say, city dwellers) eat a good deal less sugar than Westerners.

Also, joshuawbb, I'm a bit curious how you confident you are about how you're gaining weight when on a Chinese diet, and not doing so when you cook for yourself. Are we talking a lot of weight here? And you'd do, say, a two-month stint of restaurant eating, then two months of self-cooking? And compare the difference? I can't help thinking that most people, in whatever country, are likely to eat more when eating out all the time, than when cooking for themselves.

[Shelley]

I think you may find that China is just lagging behind the west when it comes to being fat. As nutrition and lifestyles converge there will be more fat Chinese. Here in the UK i see fat Chinese people in about the same ratio as other groups, but it seems to be mostly the the older generations, young Chinese men and women still seem to be thin, but you still get some that are fat.

Also you can see the effects of western diet on third or fourth generation Chinese here in the UK as they are all much taller than their parents and taller than the Chinese stereotype. The same was true of Europeans 500 years ago they were shorter and not so fat but as health and nutrition improved so did hieght and wieght.

I think and this is only my opinion, that Chinese girls feel it is really not good to be fat much more than western girls who from what I can see seem to think its ok to be huge.

Also Chinses girls seem to be really clever at looking like they have eaten a lot but in reality they have only nibbled on a small bit of this and tasted a small bit of that, combined with moving the food on thier plate around a lot it seems like they eat but I am not so sure that much goes down

But remember it is really quite simple, calories in minus calories burned equals weight loss or gain. You can't get away from the science, you are what you eat.

[Guest realmayo]

calories in minus calories burned equals weight loss or gain

I used to believe this was relevant. Then I started getting a bit fat as I got older. Eating fewer calories didn't help. So I found I diet where I actually ate lots more calories than I had been. And the weight fell off in six weeks.

I read something along the lines of: if you walk past a super-busy restaurant that is crammed full of people and you ask your friend why it's so full and he says: "it is really quite simple, more people have gone in the restaurant than have gone out" you wouldn't be satisfied with his answer, you'd want to know why more people went in than went out.

Same with calories.

Some people are skinny even though they eat lots and exercise little. For some it's the opposite. For many it changes over time. It's far more complex than calories in and out. It's why our brain tells us we need to take in calories or stop eating now that's important, and why our body clings on to calories in the form of fat or just burns them off straight away that's important.

[imron]

Is it literally fistfuls?

Yup. I took some cooking classes several years back from a local Chinese cooking school for Chinese people that also ran weekend classes and these were both dishes that were taught. It was literally grabbing one handful of sugar for the sauce followed by another handful. Most other dishes also had sugar added in some quantity.

Obviously when making it yourself you can adjust the quantities up and down, but in a restaurant, it's likely to be fistfuls. I guess the various other ingredients hide the sweetness to a certain degree. I was certainly shocked to learn the sugar quantities were so high.

[大肚男]

The point about sugar is an interesting one. Because when I was in China, I always thought "sweets" were not sweet enough. And my Chinese friends seem to agree that American desserts are too sweet.

On the other hand, I watched a documentary about the rise of western fast food chains in China and the rise in obesity. One of the researchers said something to the effect that Asians store fat in their bodies in a manner that is different than non-Asians.

[Scandinavian]

this is actually interesting, anyone know of other studies on this than the Canadian one? http://www.allaboutdiabetes.net/south-asians-have-higher-diabetes-risk/

Personally, I have dropped a lot of weight 1½ year I've lived in China. I think I eat normally, but I agree to what Shelly writes, calories in vs. calories out. The people who say they don't eat unhealthily are probably deceiving themselves. The perception of what is "eating a lot" and what is "active lifestyle" is different from person to person. BBC did an interesting series of documentaries a couple of years ago, "The Truth About Food" This concluded that there is one cause of obesity, eating more than you need.

One major difference in Chinese dining compared to western is all the different dishes on the table at the same time. As far as I know, the philosophy behind this is that many different taste-impressions makes people feel full sooner. I would also guess the fact that restaurants in most cases serve tea for free or cheaply, prevents people from ordering sugary drinks. Other things such as soup will also make it easy to fill up, without getting too many calories.

[Guest realmayo]

calories in vs. calories out

But you're not interested in why someone who is overweight is (i) taking in more calories and (ii) burning off fewer calories ?

Anyway, loads of overweight people eat less and do more exercise than skinny people but they stay overweight. Skinny people don't believe this!

Maybe the oil in Chinese food makes it harder to overeat? Because oil is fat, and fat is filling.

[creamyhorror]

Nutrition is a tricky and undecided business still, and there's definitely a large genetic component to this. I mean, Asians tend to store fat in the belly area, and our BMI cutoff for 'overweight/at risk' is 22.5 versus the Western 25 (meaning that we can't tolerate putting on weight as safely). Anecdotally, we don't seem to carry as much muscle (or grow it) as fast as Caucasians, and I think the same applies to fat.

Eating lots of carbs is generally going to make you fat, though, wheover you are. I believe most Asian populations are seeing this happen as their incomes rise.

[Scandinavian]

But you're not interested in why someone who is overweight is (i) taking in more calories and (ii) burning off fewer calories ?

no, not interested. people with high metabolism are rare, as are those with low metabolism, these are exceptions. People who say they eat very little but in fact eat crap all the time are common, as are those who say they eat a lot, but they are in fact just nibbling to a bit of vegetables.

I personally hope that the reason for Asians ability to store fat is found is to be found in the base diet rather than in genetics. Cultural things, such as what time of day meals are, eating in between meals must also play a role in this

[Guest realmayo]

no, not interested.

Pity. This is nothing to do with rare or exceptional metabolisms.

People who say they eat very little but in fact eat crap all the time are common

Erm, you know this how?

[Scandinavian]

Erm, you know this how?

Because people who say they eat very little, but are fat, would not be fat if they ate less, thus they are overeating. If people are eating too much they can compensate by doing more exercise.

When looking at China and the increase of obese people. Introduction of personal cars, flat screen tv's and constant flow of passive entertainment means that people are moving less than in the days where people biked all the time.

[roddy]

I think one factor that people overlook is that, generally, on average, blah blah blah, your foreigner in China is eating out a lot more than Chinese people, and has more disposable income. I never cooked in China. The kitchen was the place the beer cupboard was in, and maybe I made a sandwich (or eight) now and then. I would eat in restaurants, from street stalls, noodle shops, whatever. I was probably never more than a minute's walk from a very affordable and tasty source of food - and you know what? I ate a hell of a lot of it.

Sure, you can look at a restaurant full of Chinese people and say they're doing the same thing - but chances are, that's one meal out a week, and the rest of the time they're eating at home, where food actually involves effort and any waste isn't an indication of affluence, as there's nobody there to see it. It's just a waste. So they eat less. And there's probably less sugar going into it. Or they're eating out, but with a very close eye on how much they're spending - a bowl of noodles, not a feast.

When it came to eating, my Chinese equivalent was not your average man on the street, or even your white collar office-dweller. It was your pot-bellied man-purse-clutching winer-and-diner. And until I got a handle on things and started to pay attention to what I was putting into myself, I was taking on a distinctly similar silhouette.