It feels like I'm learning two different languages - Characters Vs. Pronunciation

[tennepenne]

Hi!

Newbie here, forgive me if this question is answered elsewhere.

I've been intensively studying using various sources, Memrise, Tuttle book, and Rosetta Stone, and I am having no trouble at all memorizing the characters. I can recognize and read over 1000 characters... but for some reason the pronunciations aren't sticking. I'm thinking I just don't have the proper tools here...

I wish Memrise had sound flashcards, where the sound of the word was given, and I had to select or type the definition... but alas, this is not the case.

Do you all have any recommended strategies or recordings to study for developing listening skills for a complete beginner?

I watch Chinese films at least 3 times a week, and yes I get very excited when I hear a word I recognize like 他们 or 谢谢 haha, so I'm not COMPLETELY incapable.

I'm a visual learner, which is is why I think the characters come naturally. I just feel associating the pronunciation, character, and meaning in some sort of triad is confusing me... I know the characters can give hints to the pronunciation, but I feel like If i separated it I might have more success.

Is it necessary to learn the pronunciation WITH the character? How much trouble will I be in down the road when it comes to reading Chinese aloud?

Please let me know if you have any suggestions! Any help is appreciated

[roddy]

Please let me know if you have any suggestions!

Stop using purple fonts, and welcome to the forums ;-)

[chiappa]

what's wrong with a purple font?

yes, there is a method for making visual associations with the tones. just get your hands on "Michel Thomas Method Mandarin Chinese" to see what I mean. i've started three languages with that and it's simply brilliant! definitely not for those interested in conventional methods....

personally i found that i just need to get used to listening to the words so that i can recognize the different kinds of tones.. then they start sticking. perhaps my approach to learning is more auditive.

[renzhe]

Do you all have any recommended strategies or recordings to study for developing listening skills for a complete beginner?

For complete beginners, textbooks are what you need. You didn't list any. While stuff like Rosetta Stone can make a decent secondary or tertiary source, you are learning a language and you will want something that is geared towards comprehensive language learning -- a textbook.

They all come with CDs, DVDs and other material. For example, New Practical Chinese Reader has companion DVDs, all of which are on youtube.

Other than that, listening skills are developed by lots of listening, looking things up, listening some more. Many of us have had success with Chinese TV shows. Knowing characters actually helps, since most shows come with Chinese subtitles. Keep in mind -- this takes time. A LOT of time. You need a lot of patience. So don't worry if it seems hard at first, you need to stick with it and keep making slow progress over a period of time.

I'm a visual learner, which is is why I think the characters come naturally. I just feel associating the pronunciation, character, and meaning in some sort of triad is confusing me... Is it necessary to learn the pronunciation WITH the character?

It is very confusing, but it gets easier as you notice the prounciation hints. Perhaps you don't know enough characters to make much sense of the phonetic hints. I don't see a reason NOT to learn pronunciation with the characters, you'll have to learn it eventually anyway.

There are many many theories about the best way to learn characters -- with or without pronunciation at first, in which order, whether to use flashcards, whether to learn by bulk or wait until encountering new characters in context, etc. There is no consensus. Rolling up your sleeves and just getting through them one way or the other seems to be the common theme, though.

How much trouble will I be in down the road when it comes to reading Chinese aloud?

You will be in trouble when it comes to reading Chinese outloud anyway. It's very tricky even for advanced people and many native speakers. So don't worry about it right now

[tennepenne]

Stop using purple fonts, and welcome to the forums ;-)

What about green? trololol ...just kidding, don't ban me this early

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes I have a textbook, its SORT of outdated (for the HSK) Tuttle Learning Chinese Characters. The mnemonics it uses for the characters are super helpful, and it also has them for pronunciation... I have gotten through about 75% of the characters, perhaps I need to go back and force myself into learning the mnemonic system for the pronunciation too

Rosetta stone takes up <5% of my learning time, most of it is in the book and with my Memrise flashcards, I use it mainly for the "practicing pronunciation" but its super glitchy.

Will check out the TV shows, and New Practical Chinese Reader.

Also signed up for iTalki by suggestion of other forum posts, but since I can pretty much only say 你好, this makes me super nervous. Considering paying for lessons, however.

Thanks everyone, if you have any more thoughts please post!

[Lao Che]

Do you say the word EVERY time you see it on memrise? Try repeating the word every time you see it and you may find it will embed itself intrinsically in your memory and you'll start recalling it automatically. Plus, the more characters you know, the more you will be able to guess what unknown words or characters should sound like based on their phonological components. But really, just try speaking the words as memrise teaches you them and tests you on them. I bet it will make a huge difference, and don't be afraid to go with your instinct on pinyin tests. You may look like a crazy person if you are repeating Chinese words aloud on the metro each day when you memrise, but it'll help.

[tennepenne]

Do you say the word EVERY time you see it on memrise? Try repeating the word every time you see it and you may find it will embed itself intrinsically in your memory and you'll start recalling it automatically. Plus, the more characters you know, the more you will be able to guess what unknown words or characters should sound like based on their phonological components. But really, just try speaking the words as memrise teaches you them and tests you on them. I bet it will make a huge difference, and don't be afraid to go with your instinct on pinyin tests. You may look like a crazy person if you are repeating Chinese words aloud on the metro each day when you memrise, but it'll help.

Great advice, I'll try doing this. Will annoy my boyfriend, but that's always a plus ;)

Also looking at the Michel Thomas Chinese courses, the man in the demo has such a sexy voice (I know hes 3x my age, don't judge me) Anyone have any reviews of Michel Thomas Chinese?

[abcdefg]

Is it necessary to learn the pronunciation WITH the character?

Absolutely, 100% yes. Or else you will wind up being one of those people who can only read, not talk.

Besides, when you are reviewing flashcards, you've got to call that character something. Why not call it by it's proper name? If you call it "curly backward slant thing with small double cross on top" you are wasting brain memory space and learning time. Do it right initially even if it requires going slower.

I'm a visual learner, which is is why I think the characters come naturally. I just feel associating the pronunciation, character, and meaning in some sort of triad is confusing me... I know the characters can give hints to the pronunciation, but I feel like If i separated it I might have more success.

This would be a huge mistake. Don't even consider doing it that way for half a minute.

[Guest realmayo]

Yes I have a textbook, its SORT of outdated (for the HSK) Tuttle Learning Chinese Characters.

Just to point out: this isn't really a textbook for the Chinese language -- it's just a book about learning characters. You wouldn't call a book that only taught students the 52 letters in the English alphabet a textbook.

That said, I personally found that book excellent for helping me remember the first 1000 or so characters -- although that was when I could already speak some Chinese, and knew the fundamentals of how characters work. As for pronunciation, make sure you feel rock-solid on how these things should be pronounced. Because the pronunciation part of those stories in the book are just approximations, and the worse thing you could do is end up confusing those approximations with the real sounds of Chinese.

How much of the language (i.e. grammar, vocab) do you know? If you treat the characters and their pronunciations as a pure memory exercise then, as you say, you are learning two different languages. Make sure you integrate your learning of characters with how they are used in real Chinese. I've never seen much point in learning a Chinese character if you don't know how to use it in a sentence (& usually alongside another character to make a word).

So, make sure you've got a decent textbook that will take you through to an elementary level.

[Iriscat]

Well, from my experience of learning English. At the beginning stage, I used to watch the movie with substitle, again and again, until I can recite some of the dialogue in the movie. That helped me to remember the sound and improve my listening skill. As time went by, I started trying to write down thoes subtitle when I heard those conversation. It really took time. But it worked for me.

[imron]

Deleted several posts. The user had already been warned about making those sorts of posts.

[L-F-J]

You wouldn't call a book that only taught students the 52 letters in the English alphabet a textbook.

I would, I only got 26!

[imron]

26 uppercase + 26 lowercase = 52

[Guest realmayo]

Bingo!

[smurese]

... I am having no trouble at all memorizing the characters... for some reason the pronunciations aren't sticking. I'm thinking I just don't have the proper tools here... I wish Memrise had sound flashcards, where the sound of the word was given... but alas, this is not the case.

For anyone looking to learn and expand their vocabulary of Chinese characters with the added feature of AUDIO, there are no less than 15 websites that have audio capabilities, that I have listed on this directory page for "Chinese Vocabulary" (just CTRL + F "audio" to find mentions of audio on that page).

Of those 15, I'm surprised no one here has yet mentioned the huge specialized vocabulary learning resources at NCIKU. Their Theme Word collections are like flashcards with pictures, Chinese characters, pinyin, audio and English translation. And there are all kinds of automated testing functions, for the thousands of Vocabulary Lists created by NCIKU users, to help you memorize each listed set of vocabulary.

The "Ting" vocabulary database at the University of Maine is another mega-resource. No pictures, but the Chinese characters, pinyin, audio and English translations are there.

Other specific resources listed for specialized Chinese vocabulary learning tools with audio (many of which are in the form of online flashcards), include Yale University, Confucius Institute Online, the official Taiwan OCAC, LanguageGuide.org, LearningChocolate, Yes-Chinese, ChineseHour, ChineseTimeSchool and ZapChinese etc.

I haven't listed all the information here, otherwise I'd be rewriting the whole page within this post. These audio resources for learning the characters of Chinese vocabulary would most definitely add to the "tools" the OP thought he/she was lacking: for "associating the pronunciation, character, and meaning... to learn the pronunciation WITH the character".