Going from beginner to being fluent in two years - possible?

[LiLiKe]

Hi everyone!

I have an question for you oldbeards out there!

Is it possible for a person who lives in china and studies chinese full time, to be able to handle the language (reading and speaking) fluently after 2 years?

I have been browsing the forums for some time and after half a years studies I got to tell you, you feel like an sucker when some people on the forum insinuates that it takes a lot more than two years to become fluent.

[marcopolo79]

I think fluent is a pretty broad word, if by fluent you mean have the ability to go through daily life without having to rely on anything but your own ability to communicate with others, then yes, it's definitely possible. But to really know Chinese one must not only be able to speak it, understand it, read it, as well as write it, one must also be familiar with the entire cultural background in order to fully comprehend Chinese and use it in a way that is somewhat akin to the way Chinese use it.

In two years you could probably become very adept at making yourself understood and understanding what goes on around you, but to really express yourself in Chinese in a way that is Chinese I feel would take much longer than two years.

[Maisi]

Two years ? It has been done. But really after 6 months in Beijing I'm sure you yourself can better answer the question. Do you think you can do it in two years?

whats your defenition of fluent? Mine would be 90 % of a native speaker. I think that would be hard in two years. But it depends on how you studya nd who you surround yourself with. Living and breathing chinese in China would definately get you very far in two years. I'm bitter I haven't done that

[LiLiKe]

By fluent I mean - Being able to make myself understod good enought for me to work in this wonderful country, being able to meet an partner who doesent speak english and have intresting and rewarding conversations with local people. That is what I mean when I say fluent.

Thanks for the answers!

[HashiriKata]

By fluent I mean - Being able to make myself understod good enought for me to work in this wonderful country, being able to meet an partner who doesent speak english and have intresting and rewarding conversations with local people. That is what I mean when I say fluent.

You seem to have left out the written language ability. Even including the reading ability as in your earlier post, I think 2 years in China will be plenty, subject only to your attitude and motivation.

(I'd say I'd complete the mission within one year, if there is a philanthropist willing to sponsor me for the experiment. Is there anyone out there? )

[Green Pea]

By fluent I mean - Being able to make myself understod good enought for me to work in this wonderful country, being able to meet an partner who doesent speak english and have intresting and rewarding conversations with local people. That is what I mean when I say fluent.

Yes, should be no problem with concerted effort to meet these standards. I would think 18 months is easily within reach, except maybe writing.

I do think working will be a little more problematic. You might get hired for a job with this level of fluency, but I think you'll have trouble around some aspects of your job. For example, cold calling senior executives and trying to get sales meetings or giving presentations on a technical subject. These will still be challenging.

Good luck and whatever you do, don't give up. Keep going even if you feel like you aren't progressing.

whats your defenition of fluent? Mine would be 90 % of a native speaker.

What would 90% mean?

[xuechengfeng]

Depends on your level of effort, of course. I'd say I can read about 700 characters now, and I have been lazily studying for a little over a year. You should be functional in 2. Speaking should also go hopefully a lot more smoothly than learning it in America.

[Yuchi]

Depends on your ambition to learn (probably said already?), and you, the student.

I'm only fluent to an extent (trying to juggle chinese and school), but once it gets to formal mandarin and words I don't usually use in ordinary conversation, I blank out and have to ask the speaker what he's talking about..

Now my friends look down on me and ask if I understand after every 3 sentences..

[browny]

It's an interesting question, and I think it depends on how often you study. I've been chatting in chinese everyday for about a year now, and only recently can I speak confortably with a person in chiense (like on the telephone or Skype) And I only know about 1200 characters..so yeah..keep practicing!

[Lu]

If you study hard & practice a lot, I think it can be done. Good luck!

[owen]

Ya I think you're goal is achievable, provided you're not spending half of every day teaching english and then hanging out with english speaking friends in the evening.

(I'd say I'd complete the mission within one year, if there is a philanthropist willing to sponsor me for the experiment. Is there anyone out there? )

wow... that's just, um.... super!!

[Danski]

What a load of crap.

I think by the way people have answered, there's no-one on here who's learnt chinese to fluency in two years. I would further suggest that if there was someone out there who considers (or considered) himself fluent after two years then this was maybe a 1-in 100,000 or something. I have Hong Kong friends who have been studying for 2 years now, already possessing a fluency in Guan dong hua and still can't get fluent after two years studying mando.

Why, I'll wager that even Da Shan wasn't fluent after two years.

My definition of fluency would be like when somebody says in English: Sodium Bicarbonate, or Plymouth Argyle, or Machu Pichu and you know what it means.

After two years, if you work hard, you could gain a very good understanding and an ability to understand about 95% of what someone is saying to you in a conversation assuming it didn't involve a major technical discussion.

As for fluency - if you work hard then give it 5-10 years I say.

[roddy]

Discussions like this usually come down to 'what's fluent'. The Council of Europe has this description of levels. I'd say that C1

Can express him/herself fluently and spontaneously without much obvious searching for expressions

would be a fair benchmark of 'fluent', but the next lowest B2 which specifies

Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party

might also be possible. If you want to include writing though, then

understand a wide range of demanding, longer texts, and recognise implicit meaning

is going to make life hard.

I'd say that C1 is possible within 2 years, but it's going to need to be 2 years of concentrated study, in a Chinese-speaking environment, with a lot of discipline.

My definition of fluency would be like when somebody says in English: Sodium Bicarbonate, or Plymouth Argyle, or Machu Pichu and you know what it means.

Are there any other native English speakers who are looking at these and wondering what they actually are? Sodium Bicarbonate is no problem, but while I'm sure I've seen and heard the others, I cannot specifically tell you what they are. I think I've come across them in certain materials , thought 'thats a kind of X that I don't need to know about' and forgotten them. Plymouth Argyle could be anything from a breed of sheep to a pattern on sweaters, and Machu Pichu sounds like it might be Pokeman character.

[Craig]

My definition of fluency would be like when somebody says in English: Sodium Bicarbonate, or Plymouth Argyle, or Machu Pichu and you know what it means.

That is a very poor definition of fluency for a few reasons; one it would exclude around 70% of people who's primary language is English. Two Machu Pichu, which i learned as Machu Picchu and I’m guessing are the same things isn't even English it translates into something of the sun and is the name of an Inca city if i remember correctly. Then you have Plymouth Argyle which is a proper name, and Sodium Bicarbonate, which is a science term which i admit most would recognize but is still Latin and if you were to say "baking soda" as most would many more people would recognize it.

Most places I’ve looked when they define "fluency" look for someone who can converse and interact on the same level as an average native. Is that possible in two years? I have no clue, but intend to find out. I really don't think to be fluent in say English you need to be able to use words like abstemious, acumen, or magnanimous as many would have no clue what you are talking about, and isn't the whole purpose of a language to communicate? Yes, knowing some obscure words is needed more so in some fields than in others. But it is important to remember that many people only have around a 3000 to 4000 word vocabulary in their primary language and are considered native speakers.

[wushijiao]

I think even though Danski might have used poor examples, but the spirit of his post is still true. I think with dedication, a strong work ethic, an outgoing, chatty demeanor, a willingness to embarass yourself and a positive learning environment, one can get to an advanced Mandarin level in two years. One could comunicate ideas and have meaningful conversations.

However, going from an advanced intermediate to "fluency" is a fairly difficult process, in my opinion. Why? Because being fluent in a language likewise implies cultural literacy. With other Western languages this is easier due to a shared historical and cultural foundations (the Roman Empire, Latin, Greek, Ameircan pop culture...etc.), but China has little of this. I would find it difficult to learn a significant about of Chinese cultural and historical background in just two years. Not to mention, there are many dark aspects of Chinese culture that are not easy to find in textbooks.

I consider myself fairly knowledgable about Chinese history and culture. Yet there are still man stories, idioms, and famous historical characters I have never heard of.

In any case, as long as you see learning as a lifetime process and have fun doing it, I am sure it will be rewarding!

[Lu Yi Si]

I just think that there is actually litlle disagreement on the level someone could reach, more on the defintion of flunecy.

If we drop that term for now and suggest the maximum level that someone could get to.

After two years usually most people can express themselves in any day to do day situation, and respond to basic and intermediate difficulty questions. Typically conversations could run for over half an hour or get bogged down in the first few minutes. This would be to do with choice of topic, therefore vocabulary.

To have mastered how to write a minimum of 500-1000 characters. Also having the abilty to recognise probably 500 more.

This I would consider average, and is about my current level now after 2 and a half years. I have been distracted by many, many things teaching for one. I've also been heavily distracted by learning to understand and trying to speak the local dialect.

You could, if living in Beijing for example learn much faster than this if you are just there to study. On average though it would probably take between 3-5 years to understand nearly every character and thing spoken. This could be honed into near native speaking abilty from 5-10 years.

I have met people though with extraordinary levels of intelligence, or who are totally obessed with language or literature, some bordering on autistic. For these few, it is possible to learn very fast.

On average though, most peoples' level of improvement often starts to flatten out after a year, as you are able to say everything you need to. Also real life distractions get in the way.

[Honyakusha]

The short answer to the questions is yes, it is possible.

The long answer is that it will depend on a number of factors, including:

1. Age. The older you are, the harder it will be. If you're eight years old and immersed in the language, you could easily become fluent in one year. If you're in your thirties or over, OTOH, it's going to take a lot longer.

2. Your native language. Coming from another Asian language, especially one related to Chinese either in morphology or the use of Chinese characters, would make things a lot easier than coming from English or Spanish. It would also increase your level of immersion by virtue of not being around others who speak your language.

3. Environment. Are you spending all day teaching English? Are you spending your free time with other non-natives? If so, it'll take you a lot longer. The original poster specified "studying full-time," so that should make a difference.

4. Aptitude at learning a foreign language. Some people are good at it; others aren't. Additionally, people generally find learning a third language (or a fourth) easier than a second.

5. Motivation. Pretty obvious.

I've known plenty of people who have come to Japan knowing nothing and have been able to pass level one of the JLPT (which is enough to get into university) after less than one year. Interestingly, all such people were Korean or Chinese; westerners don't seem to fare as well for a variety of reasons. (I'm a westerner, BTW.)

But while you can become fluent (as in the more realistic definitions provided above), there is no way that you could possibly be *done* with learning in two years. After you get fluent and learn the basic characters, then it's time to start reading books . . .

[zhuangzi]

The problem with the word "fluent" is that it's wholly unquantifiable.

Whenever I read a sign or an ad or an article and I understand everything, especially when the meaning involves a knowledge of the Chinese thinking style and way of life, I am totally proud of myself.

Now, if I could read an entire newspaper and understand every character, and have that tiny voice inside my head that reads all of the words speaking all of the characters in the proper intonation, I would consider that quite a feat.

If I could pick up any newspaper on any give day and read it, and be able to discuss any of the articles with someone intelligently, I would pretty much consider that fluent.

My fiancee is absolutely fluent in English. No question. But sometimes we still have to struggle when determining place names, (or any name translations for that matter) or specialized jargon.

Furthermore, if I could understand the subtext of any given QQ conversation, i.e. sarcasm, irony, etc., I would consider that another milestone.

[gougou]

Thanks a lot, Lu Yi Si, for bringing this thread back to where it was supposed to be.

To compare, my own experience:

Period:

I've been studying for little over 2 years now (in fact, I soon took a break and restarted 1 1/2 years ago.)

Language Environment:

Throughout this time, I have never had the opportunity to live in China, but have been there twice for vacation. However, I have a Chinese girl friend and had other Chinese friends wherever I went.

Autistic:

Not

Level:

Now, I know somewhere around 2500 words, which should be about 1500 characters. I can understand the simple written texts, as for example the jokes or simpler texts in 读者 (with a lot of guessing, of course).

Spoken language is much harder, my pronounciation lacks severely (not rarely to the point where people stop laughing and start wondering) and oral comprehension is tough. Listening in on somebody else, I only get simple sentences, where I know 90%+ of words. If somebody is talking to me, and willing to repeat, rephrase, repeat again, more complex topics aren't a problem either.

On average though, most peoples' level of improvement often starts to flatten out after a year, as you are able to say everything you need to. Also real life distractions get in the way.

Completely different for me. My motivation having stayed the same, or even increased with the outlook on an internship in Beijing, I find myself improving much faster than before. I'd say that is due to similarities in characters that make it easier to learn new ones, maybe a general getting used to the language.

Real life distractions? Chinese IS the real life...