闲谈, 閑談, and 閒談

[jkhsu]

The question I have is: Does 闲谈, 閑談, and 閒談 all mean exactly the same thing?

According mdbg.net, the simplified 闲谈 refers to both traditional forms: 閑談, and 閒談. However, the English definition for 閑談 = "idle talk / empty gossip" while 閒談 = "chat".

The Taiwan MOE dictionary only has "閒談". There's no entry for "閑談"

[renzhe]

AFAIK, 閒 is a variant of 閑, and there shouldn't be any difference in meaning. Same with 闲, which is the simplified variant. I ran into 閒 in some traditional materials, 閑 in others, and it seemed to be a purely stylistic choice.

But somebody better versed in traditional characters will know better.

[OneEye]

This is actually something that I've been meaning to look into, so I'll take a stab at it with my somewhat limited resources (the 王力古漢語字典 and the 國語辭典 are the two best things I've got access to at the moment).

According to the 國語辭典, 「閑」 is a fence. Other meanings seem to have derived from this, such as "horse stable" and "to block" (presumably similar to fencing someone in), though I'm just guessing at the derivation. 閑 also means 「嫻」, or 熟習. And then of course it also means 閒. That is, when 閒 is pronounced xián. When 閒 is not pronounced xián, it's pronounced jiān or jiàn, because it's a variant of 間. And at least in Taiwan (and according to the 國語辭典), 閑 is considered a variant of 閒, not the other way around. That seems correct to me, though again it's a guess, based on the composition of 閑 and its given meanings.

王 力古漢語字典 corroborates this. The earliest citation he gives for 閑 meaning 閒 is the Tang dynasty. He also gives some fun citations where both characters are used, such as 「十畝之閒兮，桑者閑閑兮」(from the 時經, 閒 meaning 間 and 閑閑 meaning 「從容自得的樣子」).

Even more fun is this, from 莊子：「大知閑閑，小知閒閒」. That 閑閑 here means 'vast' (廣闊博大的樣子), and the 閒閒 means 「有所分別」, and according to 國語辭典 is pronounced "jiānjiān" (and is 或作「間間」). 王力 does not list the pronunciation as jiān here, but then again this is a 字典, not a 詞典, and by no means exhaustive at that. My pinyin IME (IMQIM for Mac) doesn't like "jiānjiān", but 閒閒 is the first choice for "xianxian". Odd. I'll venture a guess that this is a case of the Taiwanese MOE having a more conservative standard.

The entry in 王力 for 閒 is fairly massive, so I'm not going to read the whole thing, but after skimming it pretty much seems to agree with the 國語辭典.

Oddly, my IME doesn't seem to like me to type 閒 (I've had to search for it every time, rather than the IME "learning" and putting it at the top of the list like it usually would). But then when I type "xianxian", 閒閒 comes up first, and 閑閑 doesn't at all.

Personally, in Taiwan I see 閑 pretty often, but I see 閒 a whole lot more.

[OneEye]

Also, you'll find the Taiwanese MOE dictionary (國語辭典) doesn't have a lot of words. For example, 宅男. It's a crusty old dictionary (the web version seems to have been cobbled together in 1994 and left alone ever since), and fairly prescriptive to boot, so there are plenty of words that are in common use but can't be found in its dusty pages.

And to venture an answer to your question (which I never got around to in all my nerdiness), I think we can say they're all just different ways of writing the same word.

[jkhsu]

Thanks renzhe and OneEye (though it'll take me some time to digest your post #3).

[skylee]

Others have already looked up the words in dictionaries. I just want to say that personally I write 閒, and will not put the log under the door unless it is specifically written that way in names. And 閒談 means (to) chat. My understanding is in line with this -> http://www.edbchinese.hk/lexlist_en/result.jsp?id=4341&sortBy=stroke&jpC=lshk

[skylee]

Further to #6, I also attach two photos (one each from the traditional and simplified versions of Xiandai Hanyu Cidian) and two links to the TW MOE Variant Dictionary -

http://dict.variants...ra/fra04379.htm

http://dict.variants...ra/fra04377.htm

There is no doubt that most consider 閒 and 閑 (meaning not busy) are interchangeable. But there is some inconsistency between the two versions of Xiandai Hanyu Cidian regarding which is the 正體字/異體字 of 闲.

If you want older reference, try the Lin Yutang Dictionary - here and here.

[jkhsu]

Thanks skylee for the links / images to the dictionary pages.

So in summary, what I'm getting is that "闲" and "閑" can also mean "horse stable", "to block" or "fence" in addition to the "idle" meaning. While "閒" doesn't have the "horse stable, "to block" or "fence" meaning. It only has the "idle" meaning (when pronounced xian).

However, 闲谈, 閑談, and 閒談 are all the same (using only the idle meaning of xian).

[外国赤佬]

闲谈/閒談 is standard, 閑談 is incorrect.

[OneEye]

Define "incorrect". I've seen it. Native speakers use it. Other native speakers understand it. It's a variant, but then again 'color' and 'colour' are variants of each other. 閑 is defined in standard dictionaries as a variant of 閒 (note: not an error, a variant). It may not conform to a standard, but then it's only "incorrect" within the context of the artificially created standard, not in the real world.

And interestingly enough, I have exactly this word (閑談) in one of my textbooks. It says explicitly that it's a variant, but the editors obviously felt it important/common enough to include.

Similarly, I see both 化妝室 and 化粧室 all the time in Taipei. Neither is wrong, and when I've asked about it I've never been told it's "wrong", just an 「異體字而已」. Sure, 粧 isn't standard, but that doesn't make it wrong, either.

[外国赤佬]

'Colour' is the UK standard while 'color' is the US standard, just like 闲谈 is the PRC standard, and 閒談 is the original pre-war standard. 閑談 doesn't appear in any dictionary. Of course, you're free to use anything you want in private writing.

[OneEye]

My point is that "standard" and "correct" are not the same thing. Not being standard does not exclude something from being correct or acceptable.

[skylee]

閑談 doesn't appear in any dictionary.

閑談 appears twice in the photo on the left of my #7 (on the right in the 8th line and the 4th line from the bottom.) It is a 現代漢語詞典 in the traditional script published by the Commercial Press in Hong Kong.