To be or not to be a Chinese Translator

[Lanchong]

@yueni: Given that you say it's practically impossible to find English(A)-Chinese(B) interpreters, does that mean they get paid well compared to other language pairs? Or are there other factors at work?

[angeia]

Yueni, you are a treasure trove of information. A year ago I was desperately looking for someone like you that had graduated from the MIIS program and could give me a basic run-down. It’s great to have a real, professional interpreter on here give advice and I hope it helps out all the other young hopefuls that are looking for a way to train and get their foot into the door.

Anyway, you say that MIIS doesn’t differ from SISU in that classes are usually conducted by 1. Listening to a speech 2. Interpreting speech in front of everyone 3. Get crucified through criticism from classmates and teachers and 4. Rinse and repeat.

I imagined that MIIS would be the same; and really, being made a fool in front of my classmates and teachers and 丢脸’ing on a daily basis helped build up some thick skin on my part. I didn’t mind this method of teaching.

What I did mind was the organization of it all.

What I want to know is if MIIS has any kind of direction or guidance in terms of curriculum. At SISU, we never knew what we were going to interpret. Ever. I’m not even asking for a draft of the speech before hand, or even a request to know who will be speaking—I’m talking about a break down by category. How were the classes split up at MIIS? Was the curriculum set up so you just took one interpreting class a semester (let’s say ‘interpreting level A’), and every interpreting level A class was a random mish mash of speeches with no prior warning? I was hoping MIIS would have a little more structure than SISU, such as “next week we’ll be doing banking and financing, so brush up on your financial terminology.” I know in real world interpreting you never know what’s going to come at you, but you at least know the subject a day (or more) in advance. I would never take an interpreting job if the company couldn’t tell me when, where, or what the speech was going to be about (which is basically what SISU had us do every day).

I’m also curious how many classes (and their frequency) did you have at MIIS? My complaint at SISU was we only had one interpreting class 3 times a week, 2 hours each. Only having one class for 6 hours a week, I felt, wasn’t enough for me (we didn’t have a translation class either).

Thanks for your advice on finding Chinese speeches! I’ll have to look those up. I really enjoyed doing Ma Yun speeches; practicing the government speeches were so dry and boring, it was nice to finally interpreting C-E with material that had substance and flow.

Really enjoyed your explanation about the addition of C language learning at MIIS. I imagined things would have been different for the Asian languages, since finding a non-native speaker for these languages is quite difficult. I wanted to go into MIIS with Japanese as a B and Chinese as a C, but I probably would have dropped Chinese to be honest with you. I only studied Chinese for 4 months in Beijing (crazy intense months) and lived in China for 2 years when I was accepted into SISU. Compared to you, or my other classmates, I was not as good. But I really tried. I worked hard to keep up and I managed to do only slightly worse than the other foreigners despite my 2 year background in Chinese language learning.
Honestly, the professors at SISU didn’t care about us. I’m educated in the USA, so I can tell when a professor honestly cares about their students. I imagine most of the MIIS professors walked into the classroom thinking, “I hope I can help make these young hopefuls into interpreters.” At SISU, from 70% of the teaching staff I got this attitude: “I can’t believe I have to teach this class; it doesn’t pay half as well as an interpreting job and I’m wasting my time.”

In fact, that actually happened. At SISU a professional interpreter was supposed to teach the MTI students a beginners course in simul, but since the MTI tuition isn’t as high as CI (less pay), the professor stopped teaching them mid-semester and had the ph.D students take over for her.

At SISU the schedule changed every day because they were real interpreters—this, you are correct on. I understand they take jobs when they have to and don’t work a regular 9-5. But, our teacher would change every single time for one class, and 95% of the time they were ph.D students (gets hard to know a teacher or have them gauge your progress when you see them once a month). The ‘real’ interpreter only taught us once the entire semester. When you’re forking out over 10k a year for ‘the best interpreting school in China’ and you’re being taught by a ph.D student that’s only 2 years older than you—well, let’s just say it doesn’t feel worth it.

I also heard starting this year, the CI students that graduated from SISU just last semester are now TEACHING CI at SISU. You just told me that even after a CI course it still takes years to really perfect the art—and SISU has novices teaching? Please tell me MIIS is different!

Another question: I don’t know if I will go to MIIS now, mostly because the tuition is exorbitant and I don’t want to graduate with 100k in debt. I would really love to do medical or legal interpreting, but obviously I am not a doctor or lawyer and putting in the 6-8 years to go into either of these professions is quite a commitment. Do you know any programs in the USA that will help train you to do this kind of specialized interpreting/translating (mostly medical)? Or would it be worth it to get (for example) a pharm tech or paralegal 2-year degree and then work as a translator/interpreter?

I guess I’m wondering how you go about becoming a specialist translator in a certain field without being a specialist in the first place. I would love to find my niche, and I think medicine would be better for me because I can feel that I’m helping people and my job has an impact. Most of my current interpreting is for business/finance, but it’s all so bureaucratic I don’t even know what kind of cause I’m interpreting for.

Last question: Do most MIIS interpreters graduate and are able to find a job and steady pay? I had a friend that did a masters degree there in int’l policy (I know it’s a different degree, but..) he has over 80k in debt, couldn’t find a job, and ended up teaching English in Shanghai. Frightening.

[Lu]

 

I know in real world interpreting you never know what’s going to come at you, but you at least know the subject a day (or more) in advance. I would never take an interpreting job if the company couldn’t tell me when, where, or what the speech was going to be about

I disagree that in real world interpretering you never know what's coming. At the very least you always know roughly who is speaking (mayor of a small town, director of such-and-such company, professor specialised in X-ology) and the subject, so that narrows it down enourmously. Furthermore, the person speaking generally knows what they want to say: they may have the whole speach written out, or a powerpoint presentation, or just speaking points, but most of the time they will have something prepared. It's in everyone's best interest to have the interpretation go well, so as long as it's not something secret and everyone involved is not extremely busy, they might send the interpreter a copy of whatever is on paper.

 

Or perhaps this is just my experience? For my last interpreting assignment I called the various organisations we were going to visit, they were happy to send me the slides for the presentation; I could dig around the internet for more information, vocab and background; and the organisations were happy with the resulting good interpreting. My previous job was for the government, interpreting was one of my tasks, and I would always get the speaking points in advance (although sometimes it was just hours in advance, but still). Of course, if you do this often, in the end you have such a broad knowledge that you can handle whatever they throw at you even without preparing.

 

If I ran an interpreting school, I would make a curriculum, making sure that all important subjects would be covered, and I would let the students know which subjects those were. That way, I would make sure that they all learned the vocab and skills for those major areas, and not miss one or two just because they didn't realise it was important, or because they guessed it wouldn't come up in class or something.

[yueni]

@Lanchong

Other factors are considered. Interpreters are evaluated very differently from translators. For translation, it is very possible for you to specify yourself as an English A, and get paid much, much higher than a Chinese B, since your translation will (hopefully) be better in the target language. However, as an interpreter, you are required to be equally good in both the source and target language, because remember, for East Asian languages, and in this particular case, Chinese, you have to be bidirectional. Things that are considered: education; accreditation; prior experience. 

 

Please bear in mind that this is within the limitations of me working in-house, so I do not set my own rates, my company does. If I were a freelancer, I would probably be more helpful.

 

@angeia

I, too, wish I had somebody like me back in the day when I was trying to figure out if I really, truly wanted to enter the profession or not!

 

The MIIS curriculum is a lot more structured than the SISU curriculum overall. I'd say you get 16 hours of class per week each semester on average. As for specifics, it varies from language to language, as the professors teach the students material based on what is expected in the market, and the market varies by language. In general for the first semester, the required classes are as follows:

- Written Translation: 2 hours C-E; 2 hours E-C = Total 4 hours

- Sight Translation: 2 hours C-E; 2 hours E-C = Total 4 hours

- Consecutive Interpreting 2 hours C-E; 2 hours E-C = Total 4 hours

Simultaneous interpreting is not taught until the second semester, and it is structured similarly 2 hours C-E, 2 hours E-C. Some languages (don't remember which ones) don't really do much sight translation, others focus a lot on it.

 

Topics for the first semester are "general", so no, we do not get told what to study up on before class. All the speeches that we covered and most of the vocabulary in those speeches were considered "expected knowledge". As in, if you didn't know it, wtf are you doing here?! This is the reason why my professors told me that I might have to think about dropping out after the first week. The breadth and depth of my Chinese knowledge just wasn't good enough. I don't remember all the speeches that we did, but to give you an idea of the topics covered in the Chinese program: commencement speeches by Thomas Friedman & Steve Jobs; speeches on the global recession by various speakers; speeches by random Chinese leaders about China's 12th Five-Year Plan, and how China is awesome. General knowledge in both Chinese and English includes (but is not limited to) basic economics knowledge (supply & demand; how markets work; basic monetary & fiscal policy); international politics (Doha round; G8 meetings; G20 meetings; summits between Chinese and US leaders). To be honest, the speeches that were the toughest for me were the very general "how to succeed in life" speeches, because I understood those speeches perfectly in English and the content wasn't difficult at all, but I had a devil of a time trying to convey that in Chinese. 

 

During our second year, we do start getting told what to prep for before class. Topics can be super vague: "finance", "the Chinese economy in the 20th century", or more specific: "the Universal Declaration of Human Rights". Topics that are covered or that are focused on also differs from language to language because of the market. Chinese is very much focused on business and economics, the environment, major issues between China and the US/EU. Japanese apparently is very tech/science-oriented. IIRC the topic for one of their final exams during 4th semester was some long, unpronounceable scientific term. All the students in the other languages: "WTF?!" All the Japanese students: "Meh." My friend in the Russian program became an expert on nuclear weapons and military defense in both Russian and English...

 

Please note that while all MIIS professors are actual working interpreters, that does not mean that they are all universally good instructors. I have had a mix of both amazing and abysmal instruction. I remember one particular professor who seemed pretty  随便 when critiquing students so much so that we started questioning whether he really was that great of an interpreter (since, after all, "those who can't do, teach"). Some time later, he taught one of our intro CI classes, and did a simul demo during class. That was a revelation. He was an amazing interpreter, but not that great of an instructor. So while I know you are complaining about the quality of instruction at SISU, don't have super high expectations of instructors at MIIS. I can guarantee that if you are in an interpreting class, the professors are working interpreters with a wealth of experience, but some of them are better instructors than others.

 

If you are interested in doing medical or legal interpreting, I know for a fact that there are certificate courses for Chinese in the Bay area and in LA. For all I know, there are probably courses elsewhere as well, but I would google it. I do not know what is available in Japanese. You need to know the market that you are trying to break into. There is a medical internship partnership between MIIS and a hospital in the Bay area, and they used to take students from the Spanish, Chinese, Japanese and Russian programs. In my year, they stopped taking Japanese students, because they just weren't getting the Japanese patients any more. Try looking up Japanese interpreters listed in the ATA to see if they can't point you in a good direction. 

 

As for jobs after graduation, it depends what you mean by jobs. Some of my classmates chose to take translation project manager positions because of the steady pay and visa sponsorship in the US. Others chose to return to China or to freelance until their visa ran out. If you are looking for stability, if you are looking for a 9-5 job, if you are looking for a guaranteed paycheck every week, interpreting is not the profession for you. Most freelance interpreters live a life of feast or famine. I am one of the exceptions, because I have an extremely rare in-house position for Chinese in the US.

 

Since Japanese is your B language, I can tell you that Japanese TI students who stay and work in the US as interpreters generally work for a major Japanese car company with a branch in the Midwest. They primarily interpret for automobile engineers. Another popular gig for Japanese TI students in the US is working as patent translators, as that is a high-paying position if you can output the quantity of translation needed. Honestly, you need to speak with a Japanese interpreter, because they are the ones who can help you. I do not know the Japanese market well enough to point you in the appropriate direction. It could be that you might be able to attach yourself to a Japanese corporation or a hospital, and in so doing get stable income.

[DanWang]

I'd really like to know more about the CI program in University of Maryland. How good is it compared to the one in MIIS?

[yueni]

@DanWang

 

Sorry, I don't know anything about the UMaryland program. You should contact the school to find out more, but bear in mind that it is a pretty new program and has only been around for a couple years. The website is: http://oes.umd.edu/index.php?slab=slabid-353

[DanWang]

I called them and they say it is good...as expected of them. I am looking for outsider/participant opinions of the program. I myself can't find enough reviews of it. 

[gato]

Look at the instructor profiles.  They have two instructors with Chinese at B-level (working level) or above.  

http://oes.umd.edu/index.php?slab=gsit-instructor-profiles

[brucehuang]

 

I called them and they say it is good...as expected of them. I am looking for outsider/participant opinions of the program. I myself can't find enough reviews of it.

I'm not sure how good is University of Maryland, but I'm sure MIIS is the BEST in the US.

Stay in touch... Actually, SISU program isn't bad, I've just finished my first semester there. HONESTLY, if you look beyond the small details, it isn't that bad. If your objective is to improve yourself and expand your network, SISU isn't a bad choice either. But on the other hand, if your objective is to get a degree (US accredited) and hope that somehow one piece of paper is going to land you somewhere in a big company doing in-house. Then you might wanna consider elsewhere. It really really really REALLY depends on how you look at it. At least for me, it worked out pretty well, free paid schooling with the opportunity of expanding my network and side jobs every now and then. If you really do the math, SISU is actually a great deal. I know it doesn't cost that much even if you paid for it out of pocket, because the currency is RMB, but let's be realistic, it is still money. I've compared a few programs here and there including MIIS, U of M. Let's just say you really are enrolling in the same type of program, doesn't matter where, be it MIIS, U of M, BFSU, SISU, or whatever that name of the school is in Taiwan, you are essentially doing the same type of training. So then the cost factor comes in, I mean I don't know how to put it better, but if you've ever lived in the US and lived in China, and have compared the living cost of both countries, you would probably know that it cost a lot more to live in the US than in China. I mean, I've covered all my trips all over China, all my monthly spending, my hotel cost at SISU (YES, I live in a hotel, single room, on campus), and some decent restaurant goings and etc, all just by doing side jobs. Now, I cannot tell you how it is done, not because I am selfish or anything, it just has a LOT to do with your own network, your own motivation and etc. Put it this way, if you really take sometime before starting your studies there and explorer the country to seek for opportunities and adjust your means of living standards, You would do great there in SH. Plus, I would say you are pretty bi-cultural and bilingual, then you should be like a monkey in the jungle.

Just to show you that I am not pulling data off of my ass, a 15 day course at the CIPG Training Center （外文局培训中心）in Beijing, taught by Lynette Shi 施晓菁，who also happens to be someone just like you and I, a compound bilingual, costs you roughly 15000RMB. Trust me, I've been keeping in touch with her and a few other great high profile interpreters/professors, and I am taking Lynette Shi's class in the summer this year, too. A full 2 year masters program at MIIS costs you around 50k USD (I think).

 

Now if you really, truly are going after quality, I would say, 名师未必出高徒，看君愿否白少头，三鱼两网非上策，仙师难免不忐忑。（献丑~）it is all about how much efforts you put in.

[brucehuang]

@ yueni

 

Do you mind if I send you some of my personal contacts for networking purposes? I mean, I know it sounds bad, but I'm not asking you out on a date right?

PS. Are you around SF Bay area? I'm heading down there in a few days. Meeting up with Prof. Bao at MIIS.

 

[Lu]

 

it cost a lot more to live in the US than in China. I mean, I've covered all my trips all over China, all my monthly spending, my hotel cost at SISU (YES, I live in a hotel, single room, on campus), and some decent restaurant goings and etc, all just by doing side jobs.

Cost of living is certainly lower in China, but isn't salary also quite a bit lower? Clearly you've found some good side jobs, and good for you, but I wonder if this is easy for everyone. After all, you're competing with a school full of people who can do about the same that you're offering.

[brucehuang]

 

Cost of living is certainly lower in China, but isn't salary also quite a bit lower? Clearly you've found some good side jobs, and good for you, but I wonder if this is easy for everyone. After all, you're competing with a school full of people who can do about the same that you're offering.

 

 Actually, yes and no. That gets kinda complicated. This is kinda where the "we" vs. "them" thing comes in, which I hate the most. If you've spent enough time both in and out of China, you would, hopefully discover that China isn't exactly elsewhere. And you've got things here and there you could do in and out of China depending on what's cleaver at the time.

Just to name a few examples, at times you really do need some quick cash, show off your passport and some kind of "western" degree would probably land you a job as English teaching. But at times when you're free, you could well consider doing a purchase agent type of job and tab into Chinese abroad international student market, but that dose require some network of your own. And of course, so many other things that you can do in a country that is pretty flawed, in terms of regulations, but that has to do with your own morality; basically how low are you willing to go, in terms of against your own will.

 

I don't know if that helps.

[DanWang]

@Lu

 

Adding on to what Bruce said, if you have a caucasian-looking face, 在中国你就死不了。You can easily be a waiter or waitress in a high-class restaurant if you have no skills in anything other than the merit of being white. However, if you have a more Asian face, you will have more difficulties due to prejudice but a different set of opportunities will be available. There are some work that requires a balanced proficiency of Chinese and English. Chinese employers implicitly assume, though subject to mutual interactions later on, that you are not as maximally proficient in English as your white counterparts and thus you are at a greater risk of missing the initial opportunity for a "good impression". Anyway, my point is that you have a different set of doors open for you in China depending on your degree and how people perceive of your ethnic identity. And of course, connections are always decisive factors in China. 

 

@BruceHuang

 

I might be 旁听ing classes in the SISU program this coming May or June due to a serendipitous opportunity. My intention is to see what the SISU program is like and everything. It would be awesome if you can show me around. 

[Lu]

DanWang: My point is, salaries are not very high in China. They're usually higher for white people than for ethnic Chinese, but if you're competing with a university full of translators, it'll be hard to get a decent pay no matter what your colour. So I'm not sure the 'China is cheaper to live in' argument really combines with 'you can make money with freelance translation jobs to pay for your study there'.

 

Incidentally I've never seen nor heard of white waiters in any restaurant in China. If they exist, they're vanishingly rare.

[icebear]

Incidentally I've never seen nor heard of white waiters in any restaurant in China. If they exist, they're vanishingly rare.

I've seen it in bars and restaurants in Beijing, but it's always a novelty. Normally seems like a friend of the owner, or maybe a desperate student.

[brucehuang]

@ Lu

 

Well, I don't know if you've ever been to a high class "western" style restaruant in Beijing or Shanghai. But I surely remember all non-chinese waiters served us, and you have no choice but to speak English. Those restruants are really not meant for regular Chinese people. You can easily spend over $300 USD for like two person meal. I remember there was this one time, I was at some "HIGH CLASS" Italian place in Shanghai, and we ordered like 4 dishes with a bottle of wine, the charge was like $ 400 or something. The waiter was from Canada, and he didn't spoke a word in Chinese.....

 

Anyways, I think you're missing the point here. Of course I know everyone in my class (not the school, you'ed be amazed how many dumb people there are in other majors) could do about the same thing that I do. But there are things in general they do not have, growing up and being educated in China, is my network, real world experience, motivation to get out there and do something (that's the biggest one out of all, Chinese kids are too lucky, they've got parents...)

 

So...yeah. That's that.

[Lu]

Well, I don't know if you've ever been to a high class "western" style restaruant in Beijing or Shanghai.

I have been in both cheap and expensive restaurants, high class and low class, how interesting that you think I wouldn't have. But clearly I haven't been to the HIGH-CLASS, expensive Italian restaurant you have been. In bars, you occasionally you do find a foreigner behind the bar, but they usually are not simply the waiter but rather the manager or similar, not a job you can get by simply looking white. But perhaps your experience is different here as well, or I haven't been to the HIGH-CLASS, expensive bar that you might frequent.

 

By now I have no idea what you were reading when you thought you were reading my post #151. Similarly, I must have missed the part in your post #150 where you explain that those side-jobs are only open to people with excellent guanxi such as yourself.

 

Still, if those cushy, well-paying side jobs that are making your life in China easier are only available to smart, guanxi-having people like you, other students should perhaps not count on being able to fund their studies from it. Life in China is cheaper, but for most people (but not you, clearly) salaries are also lower.

[angeia]

@BruceHuang, DanWang
Had to give my two cents about living in China and getting a job here.

 

I honestly think that living costs in Shanghai are equivalent to my home state (Utah). Compared to NYC or LA I’m sure Shanghai is a steal, since you’re living in a metropolis and can get away with *minimum* 400 USD per room to live downtown, as compared to SF or NYC which is 1000+ USD. Still, in Utah you can rent a nice apartment for 500 USD and there’s public transportation. A decent dinner out in Shanghai can easily cost 150 RMB (24 USD) and an average drink at the bar is at least 50 RMB (8 USD), which is the same as the US (I guess you could never go out to eat or drink, but say goodbye to your social life and making these so-called ‘connections’). The price of clothing, electronics and cosmetics is also double the US. While Shanghai is cheaper, it’s not as cheap as, say, Vietnam or Thailand. The RMB is going up, the costs of goods are inflating, and China is only going to get more expensive from here on out. I think many foreigners come here expecting it to be a cheap retreat from home, but you’ll be surprised to find that it’s not that much less than the US.

 

DanWang said something about “if you have a caucasian-looking face, 在中国你就死不了.” I guess you won’t die, but you’re not going to have an easy time of it either.

 

Many foreigners came to Shanghai in the last few years with the same mindset as DanWang (I speak English and I’m white, therefore I can get an uber job), and were surprised to find that they could not 1. Find a job 2. Find a company that wanted to sponsor their visa and 3. Get a job that actually paid well. Throughout my last 3 years working in Shanghai, I’ve seen an overabundance of foreigners looking for work. Companies in Shanghai don’t even blink twice anymore to see a waiguoren washed up after some Chinese language study and looking for a job—it’s so cliché now.

 

I had an American friend that had CFA 1, spoke fluent Chinese and English, was a finance genius and was whtie white white. He could not find a job for the longest time, and when he finally did it was half the pay of what he could get in the USA.

 

Basically, companies don’t need us foreigners anymore. There’s a slew of Chinese coming back from getting diplomas abroad, and they speak perfect English and Chinese. In addition, they usually have another useful skill set tacked onto the whole language thing. The real deal breaker though is the salary: A Chinese employee will take a 6000 RMB (900 USD) monthly salary and think it’s ‘high paying.’ Now, if you were a company, who would you hire? The foreigner, or the Chinese person that can do everything the foreigner can but for half the cost? This is the scenario in Shanghai right now.

 

As for a white person becoming a waiter/ess—that’s just not true. I have been to these so-called “fancy Italian restaurants” and not once have I seen a white waiter (or very rarely). If a foreigner is waiting on me, it’s usually because they are 1. The owner or 2. Wife/husband of the owner.

 

There’s something called a visa that is necessary to work in China, and to get a work visa in China you have to prove that you can do a job that a Chinese person can’t do (or pay a ton of money to a visa company to get the visa for you). Many foreigners are doing the whole hop to Hong Kong every 3 months bit, but now the government is even clamping down on this escapade. There are just too many foreigners here on sketchy visas.

 

Lastly, I agree whole heartedly with Yueni on the subject of machines replacing translators/interpreters. It’s just not going to happen in our lifetime.

[Lanchong]

Basically, companies don’t need us foreigners anymore. There’s a slew of Chinese coming back from getting diplomas abroad, and they speak perfect English and Chinese.

Are you exaggerating a bit here, or am I just moving in different circles from these "perfect" English speakers?

The other day I was watching some SI from the World Economic Forum; the Chinese interpreters working into English were very good, but their English wasn't perfect. They made some grammatical mistakes and their pronunciation has noticeable non-native traits.

Perhaps that level of English is good enough in most jobs, but I wouldn't call it perfect.

[angeia]

Yeah "perfect" was a bit of an exaggeration.  Still, they're pretty damn good (at least better than the majority of foreigners that speak Chinese).

 

And I meant that more for the general workforce and general jobs.  Being an interpreter, of course, is an entirely different story.  Some of my Chinese friends speak *near* perfect English without grammatical error or accent, but when I ask them to interpret a simple sentence they're either stumped or it takes them a long time to do it. 

 

There's a huge difference between being able to speak a language and interpreting.