more info about wuhan?

[civic94]

My friend and I (both of our parents are chinese, living in usa) decided to root seek before we get married and cant do it anymore. both of us are in our 20's, male. we have chosen wuhan since we dont want a huge major city feel, and dont want a small city feel, wuhan seems to be perfect. we decided to go there at the end of 2013 or early 2014, and stay for at least a year. If we find a job as a teacher, good. if not, just tour around and learn mandarin for a year. we both feel that our parents sacrificed tons to be here, but we do feel that in america were chinese, but when the chinese intl students came and saw us, were not chinese enough, and 1 even said that if your parents are chinese, why did they leave china? is china not good enough for you? and yes, we both can speak cantonese, but mandarin is not good, and both of us feel that for ABC's, thousands of years of history is wiped out in 1 generation just by coming to america, we see it in many abc's in the states, many cant speak a lick of any chinese dialect, and some thought people in china can come to america anytime they wish, and the worse i seen is a classmate in high school saying that she is american, looks down at the recent students that just came from china, while she herself is a 2nd generation chinese.

1. where is wuhans main "downtown"? such as streets that intersect, etc.

2. where are the business side of downtown, where the white collar jobs are at? just want to know if theres forigners there/see if we can get a job there.

3. I saw videos about wuhan, cost of living, and all the stats. but, If theres anyone here that has experience there while passing by or living there, please tell me about how you feel about the city. I would much rather listen to you guys over what i see online, since most stuff sugarcoated .

[abcdefg]

If there were a way you and your friend could first just travel in China, spending a little time here and a little time there, that would give you a more reliable way to see where you would like to live the rest of the year. I think it's going to prove extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make a choice you are happy with if you rely entirely on long-distance methods. Need to change your approach, at least that's what I'm suggesting. Make a "short list" of places that seem to meet most of your selection criteria, then go take a look at them first hand.

Wuhan had a definite "big city feel" to it when I was there last summer. Not unpleasant, but unmistakeably urban. Population between 6.5 and 10 million, depending on how you count the various suburbs. Wuhan used to be three cities, but they were consolidated in 1927. It feels even bigger than some other cities with roughly the same population because it is spread out and because of the long Yangtze River bridges that must be crossed to get in between the various "downtown" parts of it (in Wuchang, Hankou, and Hanyang.)

[civic94]

well We know wuhan has a big city feel, but we chose it since its not "huge major city feel" such as GZ, shanghai, beijing, etc. we would much rather be in a place thats more seattle/houston/philadelphia rather than NYC, LA, San Fran (american equivalent).

and the second thing was that its in the middle of china, so we can travel by train/crh to different areas. and yes, we will go to our parents provinces and visit.

I grew up in boston, and moved to seattle, while he grew up in NYC, and moved to seattle. we know about how people struggle to survive in boston and nyc, 30 people in a 2 br apt is not uncommon, but on TV NYC is so cool, boston is so historical. Im pretty sure there are people struggling to eat and live in a tiny place in gz/beijing/shanghai. and oh yea, we dont like tourist places so thats why

[abcdefg]

There are some forum members who teach in Wuhan, maybe one of them can give you more information.

Best of luck in your quest!

[roddy]

Ah yes, Wuhan, Seattle of Central China.

Seriously, you have no idea what you're getting in to, and appear to be determined to ignore the very good advice being handed out on this site. You want to live in Seattle, go live in Seattle - there's a nice one right there in the States, top-left on the maps I think.

[civic94]

Ah yes, Wuhan, Seattle of Central China.

Seriously, you have no idea what you're getting in to, and appear to be determined to ignore the very good advice being handed out on this site. You want to live in Seattle, go live in Seattle - there's a nice one right there in the States, top-left on the maps I think.

the heck are you talking about? yes im in seattle, my friends in seattle, our parents chose to move here. it beats working like a dog for a tiny apartment in a famous tourism city. what I was saying is that we dont want to be in a city where tourism is everywhere, its just too fake.

and I am listening to advice by abcdefg, I stated above that on top of going to wuhan, we will go to our parents provinces, which is fujian and guangxi, gunagdong. and i have friends in shandong and xian that i will visit. were not just going to wuhan and stick there like its the only place in china. if we dont like it, we'll just take the CRH to another city, or hell, just live in the same city as one of my 2 friends in china. So far it seems wuhan fits us in terms of weather, location, city size, etc. both of us have been researching wikipedia and reading about every city in china.

If you have more experience in china than both of us, good, tell me about it. i want to learn this way than reading some tourism book, becuase the only experience i do have in china is wiped out, I was 10 last time i was there, and my friend was 9. we are chinese in america but we feel if we dont go now, it will be never.

Out of all the abc's that I personally know, none of them went back to china, most of them went to school, then college, then climb the ladder @ work. im different. my best friend is different. if our blood is 100% chinese, why on earth, in our lifetime, have not experience or been to china?

[msittig]

I live in Shanghai, never heard anything great about Wuhan. It's a pretty big city too.

Can you tell us what you like about it, maybe somebody can make other recommendations based on that, other than that it's less "fake" and "touristy" than my adopted hometown (an opinion that made me chuckle).

Also, what do you hope to get out of your year here? Language? Connect with family? A girlfriend/wife?

Finally, for a lot of Chinese people their greatest dream is to be able to leave China for the US/Canada/Australia, or make that possible for their children. What will you say to those people?

[civic94]

Can you tell us what you like about it, maybe somebody can make other recommendations based on that, other than that it's less "fake" and "touristy" than my adopted hometown (an opinion that made me chuckle).

fake as in seeing many tourists and videos about that city, but the average joe is having a super tough time surviving, and crime rates are super high once you walk off the tourist areas. its just my opinion, and you have yours .

Also, what do you hope to get out of your year here? Language? Connect with family? A girlfriend/wife?

language, roots, gf/wife thing, I would try not to, see below.

Finally, for a lot of Chinese people their greatest dream is to be able to leave China for the US/Canada/Australia, or make that possible for their children. What will you say to those people?

you have no idea how much family problems are made by doing this. 100% of my family problems on my moms side is because of this, and 100% of my dads side family problems are because of this. so is many other first generation chinese who left china for america. My mother married my dad who is a drunk,abusive, dont work, and 10+ years older, came here, and my dads sister who brought them over gave my mom hell because she brought her over. when I was born in america, that aunt yelled at me when I was an hour old becuase she is jealous of me being a citizen.

and many chinese who came here, have to pay back the fee to the relative who brought them here, in most cases, about 25k to 30k. and my mom who worked so hard to get her siblings over, who she dont even ask for the money (have to pay lawyer and all the goverment stuff, its not cheap) dont even appreciate it, and in turn get mad at my mom because in china, their lives were better. once my mom brought her siblings over, my dads side people threatened to kill my mom and me because they were jealous, america is better than china in many ways. If a person in china has a BA degree, what good is it in america? they will probably just work in a resturaunt.

most immigrants who came to america have to work in a chinese resturaunt for less than min wage, 6 days a week, 13 hours a day, hard labor, and the language barrier. people in china think once you come to america, you will find gold on the ground, but its the opposite, they are at the bottom of society.people think once they come to america, they will have white friends and life is good, but with the language barrier, those americans would just walk past them like they are nobody. but i have to admit, many of these folks who visit china, back to their villages, they show off because they are from america.

and also, there are many who smuggle to america, pay 35k in debt, some are killed on the way, only to come to america and live in a room with 10 other people, making little money in nyc, while in china they had a big house and thought they can find gold on the ground in america.

yes, some of my friends who are abc have dads that are 20, even 30 years older than their moms, only to come here and struggle, becasue in reality people who went abroad and comes back, they want to show off that they are in america, they will not tell their friends that they are inferrior and a second class citizen in america. so the perception of people that are in china is that they think america is the best. In boston, many chinese seniors pick up cans/dig thru garbage for 5 cents each, becuase they are poor, my grandma did it, so did I. when I traveled to china when i was 10, i can remember my grandma just showing off that she has money and america is the best thing in the world. In america, they are nobody, in china they are kings.

if its not for america, my family on both sides wont have this much problems, same with my friend who is coming with me. there is 2 sides to every story, my mainland friends who i met in college just think i have the good life since im a citizen, but they dont know how much BS there is. I know many, many ABC's who's family are destroyed by coming to america, people get jealous. people get greedy. people say one thing when they need you, once their in america, they dont know you. and once they find out how hard it is in america and miss china, they will yell at you and talk shit behind your back, and all you did was try to please everyone and be a good person.

my mom had to take tons of hell from my dads sister who brought her here, my mom had to pay her 25k in the 80's. my mom had to marry a deatbeat husband. then when my mom bought her brothers over, the brothers also got young wives in china, becuase they have a chance to come to america. and once the brothers figure out how hard it is in america, they yell at my mom. once the brothers's wives figure out how hard life is in america, and how old their husbands are, they yell at my mom. this cycle goes on forever, and yes, this kills families. my mom has a mental illness because of all this pressure, and her siblings+their wives just laugh.This is just one example. Ive heard worse.

what would I honeslty tell those folks who want to come to america? exactly what i just said, but no one will listen, honestly. the only reason I exist in this world is because of america, It has done much harm to me, my mom, and 100% of our family problems. life for my mom was poor but peaceful in china. everyone is a different animal once money gets involved.

[anonymoose]

If it's so bad, why not just go back to China?

[msittig]

fake as in seeing many tourists and videos about that city, but the average joe is having a super tough time surviving, and crime rates are super high once you walk off the tourist areas.

I think you have the wrong impression of Shanghai.

* If Shanghai is "fake", it's because it has a heavy foreign influence so it's hard to see the real China here. That goes for its history and its modern form. But as far as being touristy fake, you only have to live here for a few months to get beyond that.

* Everybody is having a tough time surviving, all over China. It's a dog-eat-dog climb out of poverty and into the middle class. Nobody wants to be left behind. The race starts in the cradle. Don't think it's only Shanghai.

* Crime in Shanghai? Shanghai is one of the safest big cities in the world. Try to name a bad neighborhood in Shanghai -- you can't.

I'm not saying you should come to Shanghai. I don't think you'll like it here, but not for the reasons you think.

language, roots, gf/wife thing only if its right and they are not into cars/house.

* Language: You look Chinese, so you'll be expected to speak at least standard Chinese. Anywhere you live will be fine.

* Roots: Overrated, but that's just an opinion. China is a big, diverse place. Don't expect to find your roots in Wuhan if your family is from the deep south.

* gf/wife: I predict this will easier than you think, and harder than you think. Easier to find, harder to maintain. I wish you luck.

you have no idea how much family problems are made by doing this.

It's great that you have a good solid message about this. A lot of people have a very sugar-coated view of the outside world. They will think you are crazy for coming back to China, especially because you look Chinese, and ask you tough questions about it. They will think that your friends who stayed back in the US to climb the ladder have much more sense than you. Be ready for that.

Finally, like I said I haven't heard anything good about Wuhan. It's a big, crowded city that gets very hot in summer and very cold in winter. What attracted you to it? Here are some alternatives:

* Hangzhou

* Qingdao

* Chengdu

* Nanning

* Wuxi

* Zhuhai

* Changsha

* Xiamen

* Urumqi (ok now I'm just kidding)

But like I said, I've never lived in Wuhan (visited for a few hours once) so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[civic94]

If it's so bad, why not just go back to China?

and thats what im doing. what you think im here asking questions for . If I find a job in china, I will stay there and find a wife. if i dont stay, im not going to find a girl and say im from america, Ive heard tons of stories about men doing that, bring the wife over, and find out her true personality or she leaves.

never has been a month in my life where I dont get reminded of how lucky i am in america by some of the relatives from my dads side, but they dont see anything wrong with what they did. all they think is my moms family is poor, and whatever BS they give us its justified, while my moms side talks smack about my mom. I want to explore, if my life is better in china, i will stay.

It's great that you have a good solid message about this. A lot of people have a very sugar-coated view of the outside world. They will think you are crazy for coming back to China, especially because you look Chinese, and ask you tough questions about it. They will think that your friends who stayed back in the US to climb the ladder have much more sense than you. Be ready for that.

I would say the family problem associated with america thing is about 70%, some might disagree, but i know what im talking about. some of the people i know wont share their family problems, but out of 20 people that I have been good friends with, and I share my story about america, and they open up and dig deep down inside and tell me, stuff like this happens. its always jealousy, and money on top of having a chance to come to america that kills families.

worst story i heard? friends's father is older than mom by 20 years, mother brought sibling over, handed over her life savings of 30k so siblings family can get on their feet in boston since it costs so much to live there, the wife of the sibling is much younger, so she took the money and ran. sibling became homeless so he stayed with my friends family, then goes back to china and talk trash about how his sister didnt do enough to help him. finds another younger woman who dont know better and the process repeats itself. they are no longer siblings, and money is never returned.

my friend who is coming with me also has a cousin in the same city as him, they dont talk. only way a message goes through is when my friends dad talks to his mother in china, and the mother calls the other son, and the son calls the son. same city, 2 brothers, and 2 cousins that dont talk to each other, 100% problem generated by coming to america. message has to travel halfway around the world and back to get it. when people are poor, they help each other. once money come in, its more powerful than blood.

msittig, I have researched nanning and changsha, and also looked into chengdu. if we dont like it all we gotta do is pack our bags

[abcdefg]

...and the second thing was that its in the middle of china, so we can travel by train/crh to different areas.

Agree with you that Wuhan is an excellent transportation hub. By the way, I'm not trying to argue against Wuhan as a place to explore to see if it fits your requirements.

One thing that always messes me up when I try to figure out what cities in China I might like best is the fast rate at which they are changing. I find a couple of favorable reports on some particular place, go there to have a look, and find, just for example, that it has doubled in size in the past three years and become badly polluted. What I read about the place is no longer true.

From what I've read (not a lot) Wuhan is poised to get much bigger before too long.

Wuhan was recently named as one of the 13 emerging megalopolises in China in a July 2012 report by the Economist Intelligence Unit; Supersized cities: China’s 13 megalopolises

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan

This entire report might help you in your research, since it addresses demographic trends. (I've only read the summary; but it seems to be free.)

China will see its number of megalopolises grow from 3 in 2000 to 13 in 2020. We analyse their varying stages of demographic development and the implications this will have for several core sectors.

The rise and decline of great cities past was largely based on their ability to draw the ambitious and the restless from other places. China’s cities are on the rise. Their growth has been fuelled both by the large-scale internal migration of those seeking better lives and by government initiatives encouraging the expansion of urban areas. The government hopes that the swelling urban populace will spend more in a more highly concentrated retail environment, thereby helping to rebalance the Chinese economy towards private consumption.

Here's a download address: https://www.eiu.com/...Megalopolis2012

[anonymoose]

What I meant was, if your parents and relatives found out life was tougher in the US than back in China, why didn't they return to China?

[jkhsu]

OP: I think msittig mentioned some very true points in post #10. You certainly have stated your reasons for wanting to go back to China and "seek out your roots"; nothing wrong with that. But just keep in mind that China might not turn out to be what you expect, regardless of which city you reside in. In fact, many of us who have spent some time in China know it's not what you expect already. However, nothing wrong with giving it a shot and trying it out. I just have two suggestions for you if you really want to be successful in somehow staying in China (and I won't get into any visa issues, etc.)

1. Focus on how you can make money and survive. This is probably the #1 thing that should be constantly on your mind. After a while, it's not going to be a vacation anymore but real life. As much as you dislike how money has ruined people (I dislike it as well), how "happy" you are in China will depend largely on whether or not you can make ends meet. As a single person, it's easy to adjust your expectations but once you have others who depend on you, it won't be that easy.

2. Learn Chinese. It's great that you can speak Cantonese and are planning to learn Mandarin. You'll need to be able to read and write to really integrate into the society there. Expect this process to take more than a year or two.

Finally, as hard as it is to learn Chinese, #2 is actually easier than #1. Without #1, you'll be heading back pretty soon.

[civic94]

What I meant was, if your parents and relatives found out life was tougher in the US than back in China, why didn't they return to China?

my parents are divorced, I only talk to my mom. but she has a mental illness, damage has been done. and for many people who came to the us, they have to surrender their hukou in china. my mom wants to stay in america while I want to see whats out there. and my relatives on my moms side boasts how good it is in china, say that they came here becuase of luck, not because of my mom, and they are lying their behinds off. we dont have true relatives in america, we did when everyone was in china.

as for my friend, its the same deal. he has aunts/cousins in 8 different states in america, dont even talk to one of them unless someone passes away and goes to a funeral. his family issue was borrowing money for another siblings family to come here, and that money is never returned. their family was struggling really hard in ny, and they lend their relatives money so they can come here and settle in, but, the relatives think that they are the new ones here, and gold is often found on the gound in the u.s., so that the money should not be returned because they are the vitcims working 6 days a week in a chinese resturaunt and living with 2 other families in a 2 br apartment.

for me and him, part of it is to see what our parents left for, and see why just a simple thing as america can damage families so bad. many folks in the villages think america has gold on the ground, and the ones that return will show off their USD. and the ones who tell the stories to the villagers/neighbors, those folks just think their family is stupid and just have stupid problems, america is so good, why fight? if I make 10x more in america I will be rich, but once you factor in everything is 10x more expensive, its another story. life in the china's villages is poor, but they have a house. in america, many newcomers come and live in tiny room that is smaller than their bathroom in china, and they have to share a kitchen and bathroom.

There must be some other abc's on this forum, you must know im not BS ing anyone.

[anonymoose]

I don't think anyone thinks you are BSing. I can understand all the things you said. Sounds very sad. I hope you find what you are looking for in China. As others have said, though, I think your preconception of China is a little skewed. You've been on these forums quite a while now, and you've written several posts worrying about crime in China. Well, I guess crime is rife if you include things like bribery and corruption, but as a visitor, you're pretty safe here. The worst that is likely to happen is you get pickpocketed, and that can be avoided with vigilance. I don't know why you've decided on Wuhan though. You don't want the big city feel, but the fact is, whether you are standing in the middle of a 20-million inhabitant concrete jungle (Shanghai) or a 6-million inhabitant concrete jungle (Wuhan), there will still be concrete and people around you as far as the eye can see. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to Wuhan, but the way you arrived at your choice is odd. Comparing any city in the US to China is a longshot, but if you want a Seattle, maybe Qingdao would be better. It's also by the sea, is relatively clean (compared to other cities in China, not Seattle), is cold in winter, and even has a little Mt Ranier (崂山). (Just kidding about the mountain.)

[civic94]

I don't think anyone thinks you are BSing. I can understand all the things you said. Sounds very sad. I hope you find what you are looking for in China.

sad but true. i guess im the first abc to tell this to the whole world . I know a guy here thats 20, his mom is 40, divorced in china. then his stepdad went to china and married her+ bought them over. the stepdad is 75. tons of loveless marriages are caused becasue of america. the stepdads daugher is older than the wife. but then again i can imagine a chinese girl in china marries a older rich guy because of a better life, only to have the husband cheat, but what can they do? divorce and be poor again?.

when I was in college talking to the mainland friends, they see me as lucky with the citizenship, but when i ask them if they talk to their cousins/aunts/uncles, they say they are close. I see it as they are the lucky ones. my friend in america also, his dad has 5 siblings, mom has 8. tons of cousins/relatives in america, but no one talks to anyone.

I think your preconception of China is a little skewed.

im just an outsider looking in, the best i can do is watch videos and wikipedia. its like a person in china looking to come to america might have a skewed preconception of america.

You don't want the big city feel, but the fact is, whether you are standing in the middle of a 20-million inhabitant concrete jungle (Shanghai) or a 6-million inhabitant concrete jungle (Wuhan), there will still be concrete and people around you as far as the eye can see. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to Wuhan, but the way you arrived at your choice is odd.

well we see wuhan as in the center of china, and its not too expensive compared to the other bigs. of course, we will travel around provinces and enjoy ourselves. If we get teaching jobs or whatever, then we'll stay. all of our lives were chinese first, and never american. society doesnt think so. and i bet if I go to china and say im american, people there also dont think so.

[imron]

First off, to give my comments some context, I'm not American, and would consider myself neither particularly pro- or particularly anti-American.

With that out of the way, I think you are attributing to America things which are not really problems with America, but from what you have said are more problems with a) certain members of your extended family not being nice people and b) certain aspects of Chinese culture, namely concepts like 'face' and 'guanxi', that can cause people to do all manner of stupid things in order to maintain face, and also find it difficult to refuse certain requests from people depending on their relationship with that person.

Having grown up in the US, you might not have been exposed to how strongly these things permeate through most facets of life in China, but you'll see it soon enough when you're here, and to me, what you've described above appears to be more due to aspects of Chinese culture rather than anything to do with America/American culture.

and i bet if I go to china and say im american, people there also dont think so.

I think you'll find you're very much mistaken on this point. People passing you in the street and not paying much attention probably won't think you're American, but if you don't speak good Mandarin, then as soon as you need to interact with someone it will be obvious as soon as you open your mouth to speak. In fact, you'll probably find yourself needing to explain that you're American multiple times daily. This might be less of an issue if you are in predominately Cantonese speaking area because you mentioned you spoke Cantonese, but Wuhan isn't that place, but even assuming language isn't an issue there are still cultural mannerisms and behaviours that will make it a dead giveaway, and you'll also find that you have completely different expectations for how people should act and behave in certain situations and this will also serve to demonstrate to people (and to yourself) that you are from two totally different cultural backgrounds.

This kind of sucks because maybe you've spent your whole life growing up in the US and feeling you don't quite fit in because everyone there (including yourself) sees you as Chinese, but then when you go to China you find that people don't accept you as Chinese, but rather see you as American. That can cause a bit of mind-fuck for some people, and, to varying degrees (depending on the person), also depression for a time, so just be prepared.

I'm not an ABC/CBC/BBC/etc, so I can't tell you first hand what it's like, but I have many friends who are and have met scores more during my time in China, and one phenomenon I have seen that is very is common is that people of Chinese descent who have grown up overseas and go back to China to discover their Chinese side, often find that what they end up discovering instead is just how American/Canadian/Australian/British they are.

It might be hard for you to see your Americaness at the moment, but you'll start to see it more and more once you arrive in China. Based on your comments in this and other threads, I think you'll find that when you're in China you'll discover you have much more in common with other Americans (and also British, Australians, Canadians and so on) than you do with the local Chinese people.

[msittig]

one phenomenon I have seen that is very is common is that people of Chinese descent who have grown up overseas and go back to China to discover their Chinese side, often find that what they end up discovering instead is just how American/Canadian/Australian/British they are.

So true.

[civic94]

Based on your comments in this and other threads, I think you'll find that when you're in China you'll discover you have much more in common with other Americans (and also British, Australians, Canadians and so on) than you do with the local Chinese people.

thanks for your response, Yes i know im americanized, its the same issue with my friend. I have always felt chinese in america, and the worst was when I went to college in a tiny town, we had different trips with my capstone where it lasted a few days camping somewhere, and i was the only asian. and yes, people talk behind my back and say im the asian guy, while they dont even know who their ancestors are and think the country is theirs. it belongs to the natives. a 2nd generation russian person can be 100% americanized, while a 5th generation chinese is still chinese. and yes, when driving I have been told to go back to my damn country before, you know, the typical BS.

and oh yes:) I have a friend in the midwest, he is born in in america, and parents have a chinese resturaunt in a small town. he has his fair shares of racism while delivering chinese food, from using stupid accents to saying that he eats dogs. america is a racist country behind closed doors.

like i said before on my older posts, I felt chinese my whole life here, then when I met those students from china, and at my U, its in a small isolated town of 10k people, I was the only american born chinese there. that was the first time in my 25 years of life i felt american. I answered as much questions as they answered mines. it was shocking to them that my last name is chinese, but i dont speak the national language, or even read the news about whats going on in china. some see me as lucky to have a citizenship, one blunt and cocky dude think my parents are traitors becuase if their blood is chinese, why the hell did they leave china, as if china is not good enough for them, as if your chinese, you got to have patriotism and go thru the good and bad times, and as their son, why would I have the balls to say im chinese when my parents left china and im so americanized.

I think for me, my language and the way i think might be a dead giveaway, but if im in guangdong i might get away with it. Ive lived in chinatown while in boston, and every city i lived in after that im always around chinatown either working at a resturaunt or being around there. I try so hard to preserve my culture, so i know the some but not all etiquette's of chinese way of being around people.