Another 'Can I learn to speak Chinese without writing?' post

[Shandongren]

Well, I'm back. Taking another stab or swipe at learning Chinese, after 9 months of very minimal progress. 'This time it's for real!'

I will learn to speak Chinese at a proficient level.

I will not learn Hanzi. (Although in a sick way I'd like to). I simply do not have the time or energy for this massive undertaking. I can get my CPA and MBA as well as 2 years' work experience, and probably some elementary Russian, in the time it would take me to learn to read the "Chinese Daily" in Chinese.

The opportunity cost is simply not worth it.

I have two tools at my disposal that I hope will help: 1) personal tutor (who can help with vocabulary acquisition by being my translator from hanzi to pinyin; 2) modern technology (thanks google translate, where i can paste Chinese text and get the pinyin out).

I will watch hours of WWI Japanese invasion-era dramas and incomprehensible newshows, catching one or two words every minute, to try to accomplish this end. I have even contemplated starting by watching cartoons.

I will do this so that I can widen my experience of this country, which so far has been home-office-home traveling the same 3 streets for the past 9 months.

[外国赤佬]

Um, you won't be able to do much without at least being able to read. You won't even be able to order a dish or make sense of a subway map. What's the point? You also won't be able to say much on any of the more 'serious' topics. Such level of Chinese is only good for picking up girls, to put it bluntly.

[nawor]

I think it is pretty difficult to get past a beginner level without learning characters.

By learning characters you will be able to learn from books, flashcards, forums, subtitles, etc.

When I first started learning I listened to Pimsleur which led me to believe I could learn (and learn quicker) without knowing characters.

So I started learning without characters and at first made good progress. However, once I reached the end of Pimsleur my progress stagnated for a long time.

My progress didn't pick up again until I started learning characters and reviewing material using SRS.

I'll point out that even without learning Hanzi, learning Chinese will still be a massive undertaking involving a lot of time. Several thousand hours plus would be a good start.

Probably still enough time to get a CPA and MBA.

Listening to TV shows when they are above your level typically isn't very beneficial. I find even Cartoons difficult to understand.

Anyway, I think you should give learning characters a go. Learn at least a few hundred and if you can figure out a way to learn Chinese without the characters, then you can decide to stop learning them if you like.

[Guest realmayo]

I can get my CPA and MBA as well as 2 years' work experience, and probably some elementary Russian, in the time it would take me to learn to read the "Chinese Daily" in Chinese.

I think there's an error here. If you were fluent in Chinese but couldn't read or write characters, it wouldn't take you long to learn how to read a Chinese newspaper. Maybe six months

[kdavid]

You can become conversational in daily matters without ever learning characters.

However, you'll never become an eloquent, educated speaker. This requires reading at a level higher than you'll find in pinyin-only books.

You're essentially looking at the difference between speaking like the average taxi driver and a graduate student.

[count_zero]

>> I will watch hours of WWI Japanese invasion-era dramas and incomprehensible newshows, catching one or two words every minute, to try to accomplish this end.

Good plan!

Foolproof!

[count_zero]

Seriously, if you don't understand characters you won't even be able to understand simple advertising slogans for dish-washing powder.

The Chinese language IS the characters. If you're not into that then take up the banjo or knitting or something.

[laurenth]

You're essentially looking at the difference between speaking like the average taxi driver and a graduate student

If my objective was to become fluent in Chinese, I would be very, very happy to be able to talk "like the average taxi driver" How much more fluent can you get?

[renzhe]

Are you planning to do this in China or abroad (it wasn't clear from your post, sorry)?

Some people do manage to get to a basic conversational level in Chinese without learning to read, and through lots of conversation. You'll never be really good at a language if you're illiterate, but you can reach a level that's useful enough for many things, and for some people this is enough.

AFAIK, all of these live in the target country immersed in the language (Mainland China, Taiwan, etc.) I have never heard of an adult becoming fluent in Chinese without any reading, who learned outside of China or a similar highly immersive environment (some extended Chinese families might qualify). I think that it might be impossible.

Characters are relatively easy as far as the Chinese language goes, and they make many things easier. But different people learn differently. If you're in China, it might work for you.

[agradychandler]

The best way to learn Chinese is to forget trying to learn how to write!

If you focus on learning speaking, listening and reading, you will quickly develop your Chinese skills needed. I learned early on that I was wasting too much time trying to memorize character strokes. Once you get past understanding pronunciation, just invest time in reading Chinese Characters with Pinyin on top, then move to Chinese characters with pinyin at a later section in the book. Eventually, you will only need pinyin when learning new characters.

This way, you get the best of both worlds, can expedite your learning and you will still be able to type Chinese using pinyin input.

[Glenn]

The Japanese invaded China during the WWI era too? I didn't think they did that until the 30s, although there was the 甲午戰爭/日清戦争/First Sino-Japanese War. But that was from 1894-1895 according to Wikipedia, and apparently was fought over control of Korea. Was that a typo for WWII or am I missing something?

[abcdefg]

I will learn to speak Chinese at a proficient level.

I will not learn Hanzi.

Need to clarify whether by "learning Hanzi" you mean only learning to read it or learning to write it. The former is easier. Also need to clarify what you mean by "a proficient level." Peoples' notions of proficiency vary all over the map.

You will get better advice after that. Whether you want advice or not is another matter. Your original post sounded more like a declaration of intent.

Just out of interest, what does your personal tutor think about your plan? I also must wonder and ask how much language progress you have made since your last post on this topic in March?

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/37141-need-to-be-conversational-in-mandarin-fast/

[Erbse]

Here is the deal:

- no hanzi, no dictionary

- no hanzi, no advance grammar books

- no hanzi, no reading while commuting

- no hanzi, a hard time keeping words with the same sound but different meaning apart

Well, it can be done, but let's face it. Your Chinese will pretty much resemble that of a migrant worker. No offense to migrant workers.

[kdavid]

If my objective was to become fluent in Chinese, I would be very, very happy to be able to talk "like the average taxi driver" How much more fluent can you get?

To be fair, I have had many conversations with well-spoken taxi drivers. However, on the whole, they're far from eloquent.

In other words, if the OPs objective is to be conversant in daily routines, this would be fine. However, if he/she is looking to do business and/or earn the respect of those he/she is speaking with, a more educated grasp of the language will be needed.

真他妈的 and 操他妈的 will only get one so far in expressing one's thoughts.

[Olle Linge]

The best way to learn Chinese is to forget trying to learn how to write!

I think the correct approach indeed lies in writing by hand vs. only learning how to read/type. I don't think learn to read is extremely hard, but learning to distinguish between several thousand characters, remembering how to write them all and keeping track of which characters go together in which words, that takes some serious time. Learn how to write the most common characters in the beginning, though, because that really helps with understanding characters.

So, I wouldn't remove characters entirely (for reasons others have already elaborated on), but I would definitely cut down on or remove handwriting. That's what takes the most time compared with how much you actually get out of it.

[Shandongren]

Ah, to speak like a taxi driver or a migrant worker......one can dream!

Jeez, was the last post really in March? My progress has been abysmal. First one laoshi didn't show up after New Year, then I contemplated getting the hell out of Mainland, which made sitting down to study Chinese difficult in the middle of looking at job advertisements back home (you could say one doesn't complement the other).

I quit trying to learn hanzi, which ruined any structure I felt I had in my self-studies. Being a visual person, learning a character seemed easier than learning the sound of a word. But it just took too long, and my conversational skills did not progress though my reading incrementally did.

Now, reinvigorated and remotivated (and also staying here in Mainland for the foreseeable future, so this helps a lot), I will try this whole 'immersion' thing once more and see how far I get without studying hanzi.

The plan I have with my tutor is to meet once a week (it's all I have time for) and go over any words/expressions I do not understand from the week's self-study. I highlight words or grammar I do not understand, and keep a notebook until I have a native speaker with me to break it down. Then, I can input these things into Supermemo to memorize words, etc. And of course, let's not forget the Japanese invasion-themed dramas and cartoons, and listening to talk radio in the office, impossible to understand as it all may be.

FYI, I woke up in a terror last night when I realized that Japan did not invade China in WWII. I figured someone would spot this mistake. True enuff.....

I think both views are correct to a point - you must learn to read to have a good vocabulary, but I also think you can get to a certain level of fluency without reading. That's my thesis, at least. I speak Portuguese and Spanish at what I figure is a high school junior or senior level, and that would be sufficient for Chinese.

So many people comment on the whole matter, but I would like to know how well they speak Chinese. My thesis is just that, a theory, so I could be completely wrong and will have to revert to the 'traditional' method. But I'm going to give it a try. Maybe it works; maybe not. Either way, I have to get off here and go study. Sometimes talking about studying can fool you into thinking you actually are.

Zaijian!

[kdavid]

I woke up in a terror last night when I realized that Japan did not invade China in WWII.

?

Did you not here the sirens blaring throughout the entire country this morning at around 9 am?

[chaiknees]

Most of the people who ask this question have probably already made up their mind, just want to hear some confirmation “No, you don’t need to learn characters.” But that answer is probably not a good one. As stated above, it is not a 50:50 decision with many pros and cons. There are many disadvantages of skipping characters. I also made this mistake at the very beginning, learning Pinyin-only and regret to have lost several months when I “really” started.

Your motivation to skip characters: you want to save time. I can promise you; in the long run you will waste time if you do that. Waste time to find suitable learning materials, waste time to look up new words.

It will considerably slow down your learning progress. You will save time at the very beginning as you can memorize the basics with Pinyin, the typical phrase book stuff (Hello, are you Chinese, what’s the time, I have diarrhea) very quickly. But not knowing Hanzi will be painful for you, as soon as you reach a certain level. And that level is not very high, let’s say after the first few hundred words and phrases. That is almost nothing and far away from “fluent”, without arguing now what fluency exactly means, as ten people will give you ten different answers.

The reasons for the pain have been mentioned above, e.g. in Erbses post. But the biggest disadvantage in my opinion: the wonderful variety of written Chinese materials will not be accessible for you: Books, newspapers, road signs, advertisements, websites, menu cards, even the little leaflets sticking on your apartment door. If you live in China, you will be surrounded by hieroglyphs, “pictures” without any meaning for you, anywhere and anytime.

I am on intermediate level, have been learning for about two years. At the beginning the ratio of time spent on characters was indeed quite big, now it is maybe 5% of the total learning time, really a piece of cake. I can discuss antibiotic resistance and the latest mars rover in Chinese. Without knowing characters and reading a lot – impossible. I cannot write by hand, recognizing and distinguishing is enough.

Please come back half a year later, let us know about your progress. Miracles might still happen.

[rob07]

You will save time at the very beginning as you can memorize the basics with Pinyin, the typical phrase book stuff (Hello, are you Chinese, what’s the time, I have diarrhea)

As Murray pointed out a while ago, "diarrhea" and "thank you" sound almost exactly the same although the characters are different. An important distinction there.

[tooironic]

Not the greatest example since 泄瀉 is a technical word rarely used in conversation and, anyway, in the mainland the pronunciation is slightly different (謝謝 is xièxie, while 泄瀉 is xièxiè). It would be better to point out all the homophones (同音字 and 同音字) and "shi"s 實施, 事實, 逝世, etc. as an example of how important it is to learn characters to consolidate the vocab you learn.