IUP/ICLP - value for money?

[thechamp]

Just wondering if people who've been to either of these schools think they're worth the higher fees they charge. I have two friends who have been to IUP and ICLP although the one who did IUP did it years ago. Talking to them about these courses I don't get the impression it's that much more intense than a standard university course. Especially if you're doing your own private study or have a tutor on the side. Am I missing something? If there is something really special about either, could you say what it is so that the rest of us can incorporate it into our studies?

[edelweis]

this thread:

http://www.chinese-f...mal-university/

is about MTC but has lots of information about ICLP. I suggest you read it and then use the search functionality for other threads.

Edit: you can also read Oneeye's blog entries:

Breaking ICLP’s code at MTC

Breaking ICLP’s code at MTC part 2

[OneEye]

It seems like whether they're worth it or not depends on how urgent your needs are, whether you're highly self-motivated or do better with external pressure, and whether your needs suit what they offer (most people go to ICLP intending to go into academia). I don't know much about IUP's program other than the fact that it's a good bit more expensive than ICLP, but I've been told that the teachers there tend to be younger and less experienced than those at ICLP.

I've not met anyone who regretted going to ICLP, but I have met a few who regretted spending that much money on it. If you need to reach a very high level in as short a time as possible no matter the cost and you need a high-pressure environment to do so, ICLP is for you. Otherwise, I'd say go to MTC or somewhere comparable, use the leftover money on going out with local friends, and the extra time you'll have on studying, consuming massive amounts of Chinese media, and practice with native-speaking friends (and preferably ones who don't care to speak English with you). Hiring a tutor on the side of your classes is also an excellent idea, IMO.

[thechamp]

Thanks Oneye. Sorry Eidelweiss I maybe wasn't very clear....I was talking about IUP in Beijing, and ICLP in Taipei - as I think I mentioned in the title!?! I also asked two quite specific questions, and after scouring that thread I can't find anything like a response to either?! I felt it was an interesting question as I've been advised twice to go to IUP but the price seems insane and I just wanted to know what it is you get for the money. I thought there might be others who were interested in that too

[edelweis]

Sorry, I thought you wanted to simulate the ICLP experience without actually going there, which is something OneEye wrote recently about, and which is specifically referenced several times by that post in the mentioned thread.

[thechamp]

I'm being facetious but....the title was 'IUP/ICLP value for money?' and there are 5 sentences in the post not mentioning 'simulating the ICLP experience' -

'Just wondering if people who've been to either of these schools think they're worth the higher fees they charge. I have two friends who have been to IUP and ICLP although the one who did IUP did it years ago. Talking to them about these courses I don't get the impression it's that much more intense than a standard university course. Especially if you're doing your own private study or have a tutor on the side. Am I missing something?'

Do you have some sort of problem with written text where you can only remember the last sentence you read?! I really felt that for some people studying chinese this may be something worth talking about - I'm sure many people would like to hear from current/former IUP/ICLP students to hear whether it was worth it and what about it was worth the extra cost.

[hbuchtel]

Your post reminds me of my first post on this forum where I got really affronted at a reply that seemed to misunderstand what I was trying to express...a typical newbie's over-sensitive reaction. However, you have been here for a while, so...???

Anyway, I've been wanting to go to the Inter-University Program's Beijing program for years, and applied (unsuccessfully) for the Blakemore Foundation's full scholarship several years ago.

I think that part of the perceived value of the IUP or ICLP programs is their association with several elite universities in the US. For people in the academic field, having either program on their resume has a value beyond what they learn in class. Looking at it that way, the high tuition could be seen as a kind of investment in getting a better job later. Whether or not it is worth it to you would depend on what field you are in.

Personally I could never justify paying full tuition there!

[OneEye]

On the other hand, there are plenty of people in top grad programs who have been to neither program. One of the top professors in my (future) field has told me most universities won't care where you learned the language, but how well you learned it. He advised me before I moved here that when he moved to Taiwan before his PhD, he ended up staying for 3 years, and he already had good Chinese at the time. He didn't go to ICLP (which was called IUP at the time), but studied with a private tutor. He said (direct quote) "the important thing is to get as much language and cultural training as you can".

The culture thing is huge, and to be honest, I don't see how much of the culture you can absorb if you're at ICLP. Those guys don't get out much because of the amount of homework they have. Some of them get trapped in this weird little cultural bubble there, to the point that they look down on Taiwanese people's Mandarin as being "non-standard" or "incorrect" and have a chip on their shoulder about speaking whatever they've convinced themselves they're speaking. Not that they don't develop good skills in Chinese, mind you, but their Chinese is far from natural-sounding in any sense. It tends to be stilted and bookish, with weird 兒化 everywhere and phrases from 50 years ago (when some of their textbook materials were written). Say "歹勢" (phái-sè, Taiwanese equivalent to 不好意思 and very common here, even when speaking Mandarin) to them and they're lost. It's really weird. And apparently some of the teachers there are "Taiwanese deniers", meaning they will swear up and down to you that if you're in Taipei, you will not hear Taiwanese. "But it wasn't Mandarin." "Yes it was, just with an accent." "But he said 你食飽未 lì chia̍h pá bōe (Mandarin = 你吃飽了沒)." "No, you heard wrong."

Anyway, there are plenty of people in top PhD programs who hardly have any Chinese to speak of anyway, at least not modern Chinese. A PhD student from one of the big universities in California told me that the biggest thing holding most PhD students back is language ability, and I've found it to be the case that some of the PhD students I met in Taipei over the summer had intimidating proficiency in 文言文 but were somewhat lacking in modern Chinese. In fact, he said that one new PhD student there this year was accepted simply because he had done his MA at a Chinese university, so the department knew his language skills were up to the task and they wouldn't have to spend money sending him overseas for additional language training. If you're wanting to enter academia, spend some time (the more, the better) in China or Taiwan, study hard whether you're at one of these programs or somewhere else, and it won't matter if your application says ICLP/IUP or not.

My two NTD.

[thechamp]

That's more like it. Is that a newbie mistake?! I beg to differ. If someone's going to get snarky on an internet forum they ought to be told why their unhelpful comment is unhelpful! No?

Glad to hear this Oneeye. Some constructive (and on point) comments are very much welcome. I feel quite similarly about these programs - I really don't think they can possibly be worth the money they charge by comparison to local MAs etc. My point is - if you can get a 高 in the TOP or whatever they're calling it now - you can get into a local university program in what you're doing. They're a lot less expensive too.