Taking Vocab to the Next Level

[Chief123]

Hi all,

I live in Taiwan and 99% of everything I say these days is in Mandarin. I can give talks, teach classes, do interviews, shop, make phone calls, order food, deal with my family, go to the doctor etc. in an okay manner (I'm not satisfied in the least and think my Mandarin sucks to high heaven but I get along).

Problem is that some people that are close to me have recently pointed out my biggest problem and that is that I use very basic vocabulary to do all those things.

There are many ways to say many things all with a slightly different "tone" or feeling.

Of course it's hard to come up with a good real life example when you need one but this simple one hopefully will do. I may use "he left" for all the following:

He left.

He abandoned me.

He escaped.

He disappeared.

He ran away as fast as he could..

But all of these have slight variations in meaning. Most people can normally understand the idea. My friend told me that while he and others understands the idea of what I'm trying to get across, they have to use extra processing cycles to figure out which of the real meanings is more appropriate for what I'm saying.

In other words I need to learn more vocabulary and/or synonyms.

What is the best way to do this?

I've started focusing on the TOCFL (the Taiwan version of HSK) at Level 4 and 5 (the two highest) to learn this vocab. Is that effective?

Reading is good but while I can get by with speaking, my characters are still at the barely can crawl stage. Also I never know which words/characters I read are used mainly in spoken versus written.

Other ideas?

Thanks.

Mark

[fanglu]

In other words I need to learn more vocabulary and/or synonyms.

What is the best way to do this?

The same way you expanded your vocabulary in English - by reading.

[imron]

my characters are still at the barely can crawl stage

It sounds like you've reached the point where not knowing characters is going to be more and more of a hindrance to your learning.

Reading is probably going to be the best way to improve your vocab. If your characters aren't so good, I would bite the bullet and start to spend more time learning these - not necessarily learning to write them, but at a minimum learning to read them. This will be significantly easier that just starting out as a beginner because you should know most of the words you are learning, you just won't know how to read them. I wouldn't worry so much about which words are used more in spoken rather than written language. At worst you'll start to sound a little bookish if you start speaking some of the vocab you've picked up from reading and at best people will say "we don't usually use that word in spoken language, use .... instead".

Failing that, start to watch more TV, especially TV dramas (instead of say the news) as they will have a lot of vocab related to daily life.

[Chief123]

Thanks for the input.

It sounds like you've reached the point where not knowing characters is going to be more and more of a hindrance to your learning.

One of the big pains in my daily life is not being able to read characters. I can go up and ask someone what that soup is and understand (most of the time) but I can't read the sign and see that it's ___ soup.

However due to denseness I guess, I've never understood this point in the context given - not knowing characters will be a hindrance. I agree and want to rectify the situation but there are probably 2000 words of the 8000 on the TOCFL list I don't know and have never used and another x number I can't use the right way or remember. That's one of the reasons I use the minimally necessary approach and what led to this post.

If there are still a bunch on a basic list I don't know, and if I can use the pinyin (in conjunction with at least being able to recognize on a list that this character for shi is different than that character for shi) to master these 8000 how is not knowing the characters a hindrance? I'm not arguing or trying to pick a fight - I'm trying to understand..

Reading is probably going to be the best way to improve your vocab.

I've asked this before but without a lot of input. Since my characters are weak, is it okay to read zhuyinfuhao materials (characters are there) and/or pinyin materials (characters are there) until I learn the characters/words or is it better to start reading by looking at the first character, not knowing it and looking it up in the dictionary and going to the next character, not knowing it and looking it up in dictionary, etc?

Thanks.

[xiaoxiaocao]

I've asked this before but without a lot of input. Since my characters are weak, is it okay to read zhuyinfuhao materials (characters are there) and/or pinyin materials (characters are there) until I learn the characters/words or is it better to start reading by looking at the first character, not knowing it and looking it up in the dictionary and going to the next character, not knowing it and looking it up in dictionary, etc?

I learnt the dictionary way and am glad I did. While it takes longer to find the characters initially, it won't be long before you are familiar with all the radicals/components and are able to easily identify the number of strokes etc. It will also help immensely with the memorization process. Once you have a strong base in the most common 500-1000 characters move on to a faster method for looking up new characters like Pleco.

[imron]

how is not knowing the characters a hindrance?

Because you have to rely on spoken materials and/or pinyin/zhuyin materials to learn, and the amount of learning material is typically limited to the beginner range. It also means you are denied access to a wealth of native content that you could be using to both learn new, and maintain existing vocab.

Also, learning a language is more than just memorising characters from a list, you need to use that language. You might be able to master 8,000 characters on a list only using pinyin and remembering the meaning, but how regularly will you then use those words in regular conversation, and how soon will you just forget them due to misuse? Regular reading solves that problem and provides a simple and convenient way to keep vocabulary fresh and current, especially for words you might only ever use occasionally otherwise. Being able to read will also give you a greater appreciation for which words are used more in written language rather than the spoken language. As I mentioned above, this isn't really a problem going from written->spoken where you will just sound a little bookish, but if you go the other way round e.g. spoken->written the opposite is the case, and you'll come off sounding uneducated.

Being able to read also means you will be able to type, which is a significantly easier, and in this day and age probably far more useful skill than being able to write by hand.

Finally, every single person I've met or heard of that decided to only learn spoken, but then after several months (or years) finally decided to learn characters, has remarked at how stupid they were not to learn characters earlier, and how much easier it made things.

Since my characters are weak, is it okay to read zhuyinfuhao materials (characters are there) and/or pinyin materials (characters are there) until I learn the characters/words

I find books with pinyin underneath the characters to be a distraction, as my eyes will focus on them instead of on the characters (which is what they should be doing). The types of books that have this are usually also children's books, which might not hold your interest (they never did for me). I would find something that interests you, but that is not too complicated and start working with that - looking up words in the dictionary as you go (actually you are probably better off just underlining the words, and then coming back and learning the ones you didn't know in bulk).

[WestTexas]

I'd recommend SRS in combination with reading. It can really help your productive capabilities, in other words, being able to recall the right Chinese term for an English word you want to use in conversation. For terms you think useful, you can add E->Ch and Ch->E to your Anki deck. Something I do is, if I'm having a conversation with a Chinese speaker and want to talk about something, but don't know the Chinese, I will describe the meaning of the word I'm looking for in Chinese, then hopefully get the proper word back. After that, when I return home, I put a card for that word into my Anki deck. Another good idea to learn more words is to walk around with a pad and write down all the characters you see outside that you don't know. Or, maybe, the first 10 you see that you don't know each day. Then when you get home, look them up and put them into Anki.

One example of how learning characters is useful for any expat, which you already mentioned, is reading menus. Another is reading signs. Being able to find a convenience store, dry cleaner, or certain type of restaurant is quite useful. I often send text messages and QQ messages in Chinese. Of course, there are all of the examples mentioned above about how reading will improve your general Chinese ability.

[Chief123]

Thanks for all the input. For the record I am NOT against learning characters. I am sorry I've put it off for so long. I understand that for long term success they are a must - especially living in a place like Taiwan and married to a Chinese lady with Chinese speaking children. I need them for my job, for taking things to the next level (the title of this post), for improving my relationships (quit making people burn so many cycles figuring out what message my basic chinese vocab is really trying to say from a synonym standpoint), etc.

One of my big issues is that I think I'm in a comfort zone - not working on much of anything seriously because I'm getting by. I do study but lack of focus is hurting me.

I know that for example this afternoon I'll go to physical therapy (after surgery) and I'll be able to have a pleasant and fun conversation with my teacher (that's what they call physical therapists in Taiwan). We'll laugh and talk about my shoulder. At some point I'll ask her a question and she'll use a word that I don't know like pectoral muscle or something about the external rotation of my shoulder or something off topic about the Taiwan Coast Guard going to the islands in dispute.

Despite not understanding a particular word or concept, I will understand the gist of what she said - 90%+. If I'm totally unclear I'll ask about that particular word. And I'll feel good about my being able to live here and get around.

Interestingly enough there will be some words she uses that I don't understand but think I know the context. For example:

If someone hit my husband I would _____ them.

Hit them

Beat them

Forgive them

Kill them

Destroy them

Report them

Harass them

Kiss them

Hold them

The point is that one word can completely change the meaning. I'm sure that this has been a problem for me - thinking I understand but not really. That 10% (or whatever) words you don't understand can be a killer.

What I didn't understand, even with reading a lot here on the subject, is how the characters help me learn those words. Understand a bit more now thanks to everyone.

團結 L4 (VS) "unite, rally"

團圓 L4 (VS) reunion

團聚 L5 (VS) reunite

團體 L4 (N) "organization, group, team"

境地 L5 (N) "condition, circumstances"

Does this method take away from focusing on the characters (at least in the beginning)? This is how the children here are taught the characters. I'm not sure how they get weaned off the Zhuyin Fuhao though.

Mark

(Not sure if you can see the BoPoMoFo on your PC or not).

[Chief123]

As I mentioned above, this isn't really a problem going from written->spoken where you will just sound a little bookish, but if you go the other way round e.g. spoken->written the opposite is the case, and you'll come off sounding uneducated.

What is an example of something spoken that would not be written? I thought it would only go the other way - normally written but not spoken

[WestTexas]

What is an example of something spoken that would not be written?

怎么回事, an extremely common spoken expression that you'd probably never use in formal writing, unless you were relating what someone said. Or 咋回事儿 if you want to be even more colloquial.

Plenty of other examples... for example 二 to mean stupid or 闹心 to mean upset. These are from the mainland. They might say other things in Taiwan.

[mikeedward]

A good method I use to improve fluency is after I watch a Chinese movie (with english subtitles if possible), I download the subtitles from shooter.cn and read the Chinese subtitles on my iPhone using Pleco.

[OneEye]

I'll echo the general sentiment here. You've got to learn to read if you're going to get anywhere. And then read as much as you can. And watch lots of Taiwanese TV shows (there are some good ones once you get past all the sappy idol dramas), because now you'll be able to read the subtitles when you don't know what's being said.

In fact, there are some textbooks you may want to take a look at. Practical Chinese Reading and Writing (使用中文讀寫) books 1 and 2 are used at MTC for the ABTs/ABC's and other people who can speak decently well but can't read or write much. You can find them at the Lucky Bookstore on 和平東路 if you're near there, and probably at pretty much any 誠品, or PageOne at Taipei 101. They're pretty decent books, and they should take you to a level where you should be able to start reading simple 漫畫, or the 國語日報 (daily newspaper for kids with bopomofo by each character). One drawback is that I believe they're written with ABT's/ABC's in mind, so there may be some things you don't really relate to, but it's still a decent series.

[moonlight]

I believe colloquial novels could largely help you make progress on your vocab. Writers like 海岩, 皮皮 are good choice for this purpose. Their books are based on the soil of current mainland China, closely related to people's life.

If a novel is still too hard for you to follow at this level, start with a rated Chinese readers that are learner oriented. Such as Chinese breeze (physical copies), or mini novels from Learn Chinese blog.

It's a good habbit to always have a small notebook handy. Write down any new words that you think you can reuse later on your note book and review it whenever you got time. After a certain amount of time when you feel you're ready to follow a routine on writing Chinese, start a Chinese journal of your own. Put down as many or as little words you can everyday. Stick to it, then you'll see the progress coming.

[abcdefg]

I use characters entirely for texts and e-mails with my Chinese friends, and have done so for several years. When I blunder, they usually help me out.

Yesterday sent a note to a friend who had gone home to her 老家 for 中秋节 a week ahead of time and already come back to Kunming. I used some half-baked literary language about going "ahead of the vast multitude of the transit crowd" -- mainly trying to be funny by using some bookish terms I had recently encountered. My attempt was not a success.

Her reply was: ？？？广大的群众。。。？

After I explained what I was trying to say, her next message was: 我们一般会说： 。。。“ And then she put the idea more plainly and directly. So I learned from that.

I guess the point of this post is to not be afraid to stretch and attempt to use different ways of saying things that might be more erudite or convey shades of meaning. You will risk sounding silly, but If you mess it up, people will correct you.

A certain amount of trial and error is involved in taking vocabulary to the next level.

[edelweis]

@Chief:

I thought about returning the question to you: do you know a way to augment your vocabulary that does not involve reading?

But actually after thinking about it I realized I have read about someone who reached graduate level in his own language and in several others without reading. He couldn't read because he was blind, and from what I can remember of his autobiography he didn't use Braille.

That's the Egyptian university professor and writer Taha Hussein. He studied first at the Cairo University, and then later went to France on a scholarship and studied French and Latin (and it was a struggle to reach a passing level in Latin because he hadn't studied it before, while all the native French students already had).

How did he do it? I think I remember that the teaching at the Cairo University was heavy on speaking and remembering, Taha Hussein acquired some reputation as a debater (but that was mostly in his native language).

Later in France, besides attending the courses, he used his scholarship money to pay someone to read the reference books and write notes and homework for him (and he married her later).

If you have someone to teach you, and/or someone to read for you, for hours everyday, you might be able to go the same route...

Else you learn to read yourself, and then you have access to the books, including the ones used by natives at school to extend their vocabulary (I have one such 学生作文描写词典 that I haven't used yet...)