Abstract Social Obligation

[count_zero]

> If for example you read any 武侠 novels, the concept of people ganging up on a person is also seen as cowardly.

Traditional Chinese values went out of the window YEARS ago!

[count_zero]

> There are very few situations in which Chinese people and Westerners disagree on moral practice. If you sit down with a Beijinger and a Texan and present them with any moral scenario, they will agree on most particulars.

I disagree. I think it would be extremely easy to devise a series of moral questions that would separate Chinese and Westerners. Start off with "Is it morally acceptable to eat dog?" Then "Is is ever acceptable for a man to hit his wife?" Then "You are a recently hired salesman working without commission. A customer asks you about the reliability of a product you know is shoddy. Do you lie to them?" You wouldn't have to ask too many questions before the differences emerged.

[count_zero]

On the topic of morals, Raymond Zhou seems to think that the reason Chinese people aren't particularly bothered about Michael Jackson's sexual misadventures is a cultural difference:

http://www.cdeclips.com/en/opinion/fullstory.html?id=24480

And I can say this some certainty that House of Flying Daggers was never going to be popular in the west. Both of the male protagonists try to rape Zhang Ziyi! If you are making a movie for western audiences then you can forget the idea of a sympathetic rapist!

[Guest realmayo]

If you grew up in the West, count_zero, I think you may have had a rather sheltered existence. Plus, if anyone thinks there is something morally wrong about eating dog they have faulty morals.

[count_zero]

> If you grew up in the West, count_zero, I think you may have had a rather sheltered existence.

I don't understand why some people write things like that. There's not a single human being in the universe who could decipher your meaning so why bother? Why not make actual points that people can understand?

Very strange.

[Guest realmayo]

Oh, sorry. I meant that if you think dishonesty among salesmen is negligible in the West then you are ignorant. If you don't think it is negligible in the West then your post #22 does not make consistent sense.

[count_zero]

I had meant to write "shop assistant" rather than "salesman". And I had also considered adding "And you don't like your boss" to that but I thought it might get too complicated. The point was that in China loyalty tends to trump honesty. A salesman in the west who doesn't like their boss and isn't on commission would consider themselves as having no reason to lie to a customer. In China, staff will blatantly lie to customers because they consider that the moral thing to do - they are being loyal. I might be able to think up a better example given more time.

In fact, I've just recalled something an Italian guy told me. He said that he read an example of cultural differences in morality, it goes something like this: your friend is driving you in his car. He causes a car crash. Do you tell the police that your friend was not responsible? He told me that in Italy most people will say "yes" because they regard loyalty as more important than honesty. I would bet that most Chinese people would answer the same.

[gougou]

The dilemma of the car crash I've come across in cultural studies, too - it was used by Fons Trompenaars to illustrate his concept of particularism vs. individualism. I strongly recommend both Hofstede and Trompenaars for those interested in learning more about cultural differences.

PS: China and Italy both are regarded as particularist countries, i.e. countries which care more about specific circumstances rather than universal rules. Germany or the US would be countries on the other end of the scale.

[li3wei1]

Here is the danger of generalisations. We started out with China vs. the West. Now we seem to have an example where Italians are similar to the Chinese, so it's China vs. the West (except for Italy). Are all Italians the same, or is there a significant difference between, say, Sicilians, those south of Rome, and those up north around the Po river? You might find there are differences between northern and southern China, between urban and rural, between Han and minorities, etc. the post comparing a Beijinger and a Texan made me think, what if you compare a Texan with someone from the Bronx, or from San Francisco?

I'm suspicious of any argument that claims that 'China' is dramatically different from 'the West' or 'everyone else' when there are so many differences among Western countries, let alone within each Western country.

[anonymoose]

He told me that in Italy most people will say "yes" because they regard loyalty as more important than honesty. I would bet that most Chinese people would answer the same.

OK. So you've disproved your own point then. 'Nuff said.

Edit: Darn. li3wei1 beat me to it.

[gougou]

Here is the danger of generalisations.

Of course, but that's how most social sciences work, isn't it? Heck, even medicine, for that matter.

You will find few rules that apply to all people of a given category (especially if the category is set by something as arbitrary as national boundaries), but if you look at large enough numbers, you will find some differences emerging. These don't necessarily apply to every individual in your category, but to a statistically significant number of them, so they would be a better predictor of behavior than guessing at random.

Just because something doesn't apply to every individual doesn't mean it's completely baseless.

[count_zero]

> so it's China vs. the West (except for Italy)

Pretty much!

> I'm suspicious of any argument that claims that 'China' is dramatically different from 'the West' or 'everyone else' when there are so many differences among Western countries, let alone within each Western country.

Life is pretty complicated! But you have to make some generalisations otherwise you never get anywhere! I'd advise westerners to expect Chinese people to refuse a gift many times (perhaps four or five times) out of politeness. In the west there is usually just one "Oh, you shouldn't have" then acceptance. That's a generalisation but I it's still broadly true and useful.

[count_zero]

Thanks, gougou! I think I’ll let you carry the torch on this one as you are clearly better informed.

If you have a link for cliff notes on Hofstede and Trompenaars, I would be grateful for a look-see.

[imron]

or is there a significant difference between, say, Sicilians, those south of Rome, and those up north around the Po river?

Yes! Namely: Never cross a Sicilian when death is on the line

[anonymoose]

Here is the danger of generalisations.

Of course, but that's how most social sciences work, isn't it? Heck, even medicine, for that matter.

But generalisations of any credence in social sciences and medicine are still based on extensive, reproducible and unbiased investigations.

This is hardly comparable with dubious prejudices spouted off on an internet forum.

[kdavid]

I strongly recommend both Hofstede and Trompenaars for those interested in learning more about cultural differences.

@gougou

Could you recommend some specific texts, links, etc.? Thanks!

[gougou]

I don't know of any particularly good webpages, but a lot of (seemingly) useful ones come up when googling. The Wikipedia entries also are quite extensive.

Their standard works would be "Riding the Waves of Culture" for Trompenaars, and "Cultures and Organizations" for Hofstede.

[kdavid]

On a related topic, can anyone recommend any books which compare and contrast American and Chinese culture?

For example, the difference in development of systems of thought, politics, society, food, etc.

[gato]

I don't think a book on exactly that topic exists yet. Maybe you can make it your graduate school dissertation.

These books look interesting.

http://www.amazon.co...ref=pd_sim_b_23

The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners Think Differently...and Why

Richard Nisbett

http://www.amazon.co...ref=pd_sim_b_50

Lies that Bind: Chinese Truth, Other Truths

Susan D. Blum

http://www.amazon.co...ref=pd_sim_b_72

What Chinese Want: Culture, Communism and the Modern Chinese Consumer

Tom Doctoroff

[kdavid]

Thanks, gato. Those look good.

I've always felt that when it comes to culture, learning by compare and contrast is very helpful.

I'm surprised such a book doesn't exist yet. Perhaps a project for t near future. =)