Usage Of 曾 Other Than "Once"

[a_u_s]

I often come across sentences where 曾 appears to be used other than to mean 曾经. According to mdbg, it is a "past tense marker used before verb or clause". So, is it like a covert 了? Or am I just imagining things?

[imron]

Do you have an example of such sentences?

Also, probably not what you are refering to here, but for completeness in the answer to your question 曾 can also be used as a surname (and has a different pronunciation).

[a_u_s]

Here is a sentence off jukuu, which I believe to be represantive of what I described above:

I have developed excellent organizational skills by working on two major projects．

我曾参与两个重大项目，培养了出色的组织才能

I don't know, but to me, the translation seems to be perfectly fine. Adding "once", on the other hand, would make it feel slightly odd. Or perhaps that's because I'm not a native speaker of English? In my native lingo, literally translating 曾 as "once" in this example would somewhat alter the meaning - rather than just being an action in the past, emphasis would be put on "one-off" and "(relatively speaking) a long time ago". Does that make sense? In short, the way I see it, in Chinese, 曾 is often used, but when translating into English (or in my native lingo at least) it could (or even should) be omitted.

[anonymoose]

I often come across sentences where 曾 appears to be used other than to mean 曾经. According to mdbg, it is a "past tense marker used before verb or clause".

So what is 曾经 if it's not a "past tense marker used before verb or clause"?

了 is not a past tense marker. 了 implies the completion of the verb, which may be a hypothetical completion in the future.

[daofeishi]

According to mdbg, it is a "past tense marker used before verb or clause". So, is it like a covert 了? Or am I just imagining things?

I don't recall having seen 曾 used in any other sense than the one listed in mdbg, except as the surname Zeng. It is not a covert 了. 了 refers to the perfectual aspect of the verb, i.e. whether it has been completed. 曾 relates to the experiential aspect, i.e. whether it has happened. It is part of the structure 曾经[verb]过, where 曾经 can be shortened to 曾 and either the 曾经 or the 过 can be omitted depending on prosody and other circumstances.

[a_u_s]

Got it, 曾 is totally unrelated to 了, shouldn't have mentioned the latter to begin with.

So, 曾 = 曾经 = 曾经...过. Thanks, didn't know that.

But why doesn't the translation of the sample sentence I posted include the word "once"? As far as I'm concerned it *shouldn't*, because something like "...having once worked..." feels like an implied "far in the past", whereas merely "...having worked..." could also refer to a project completed only just yesterday. And yet, in the Chinese sentence, the presence or absence of 曾 seems to have little material impact on the meaning of the sentence. What am I missing? I'm confused.

[gougou]

I don't think you should use jukuu to study grammatical points. It is a very useful tool to see the usage of a word, but most of their translations aren't literal (which I think is a good thing), and quite a few are outright wrong.

In Chinese, there are a lot of particles which have an English equivalent, but would not be translated as such. For example, 已经 (which is to 了 what 曾经 is to 过) means already, but "此门已坏" does not mean this door is already broken.

[a_u_s]

So, what's the difference between 我曾参与两个重大项目... and 我参与两个重大项目...? Is the 曾 entirely optional?

[daofeishi]

But why doesn't the translation of the sample sentence I posted include the word "once"?

Because 曾 and once do not overlap completely. The word 曾 indicates that the verb has been experienced. To have V, to once have V, to have V in the past, to have V before can all be expressed with 曾

[daofeishi]

For example, 已经 (which is to 了 what 曾经 is to 过) means already, but "此门已坏" does not mean this door is already broken.

This irks me a bit, because 已经 is nothing but an aspect marker, and I think we should teach it as such. We are doing Chinese learners of English and English learners of Chinese a big disservice by teaching 已经 = already, because in the majority of cases, that is simply not the right translation.

Far too many Chinese speakers turn

甲：哥跑哪儿去了？

乙：他已经走了。

into

A: Where did my brother go?

B: He has already left.

and far too many learners of Chinese get confused about all the "already"s that are showing up where they seem out of place.

[anonymoose]

Far too many Chinese speakers turn

甲：哥跑哪儿去了？

乙：他已经走了。

into

A: Where did my brother go?

B: He has already left.

Seems alright to me.

[a_u_s]

Because 曾 and once do not overlap completely. The word 曾 indicates that the verb has been experienced. To have V, to once have V, to have V in the past, to have V before can all be expressed with 曾

谢谢，老师

[creamyhorror]

But why doesn't the translation of the sample sentence I posted include the word "once"? As far as I'm concerned it *shouldn't*, because something like "...having once worked..." feels like an implied "far in the past", whereas merely "...having worked..." could also refer to a project completed only just yesterday. And yet, in the Chinese sentence, the presence or absence of 曾 seems to have little material impact on the meaning of the sentence. What am I missing? I'm confused.

I usually mentally equate 曾(经) with "previously" or "in the past", not "once".

Using "previously" in the sentence, as in "Previously, I worked <somewhere>", makes perfect sense to me.

[anonymoose]

So, what's the difference between 我曾参与两个重大项目... and 我参与两个重大项目...? Is the 曾 entirely optional?

It depends on what you are trying to say. The inclusion of 曾 frames the statement firmly in the past. Without 曾, the sentence sounds incomplete on its own. It could mean the same as with 曾 in the right context, but in a different context, it could mean something else.

[Tiana]

甲：哥跑哪儿去了？

乙：他已经走了。

I'm not translating, and I imagine the following would be a natural English version in a similar situation:

A: Where's my brother?

B: He's (already) left.

[daofeishi]

Seems alright to me.

Only if there was an intention for him to leave in the first place! He has already left implies that there was an intention for him to leave, and he did it ahead of time. The example says nothing that implies that that is the case.

The example I gave is grammatically correct, but very often not semantically correct.

[WangYuHong]

Not being an expert in grammar or anything... but when I read the sentence I see it similar to creamyhorror's translation... "... by previously working on two important projects"

And somebody piqued my interest by not providing an explanation:

此门已坏

If it doesn't mean "this door is already broken," then what does it mean?

Also, does that other definition hold if the sentence becomes 此门已经坏?

(I ask that second question, because I've seen the single character 已 in a lot of places outside the "already" usage, but I don't recall similar usage when the text writes 已经 in full.)

[daofeishi]

If it doesn't mean "this door is already broken," then what does it mean?

The door has already been broken implies that someone intended to break it, but that it was done ahead of time. As in, and this will sound a bit contrived,

A: Can you go and break that door for me?

B: No need. The door has already been broken.

已(经) marks the perfectual aspect of the verb, i.e. its completion. A better translation would be "the door has been broken".

[tooironic]

@daofeishi Many Chinese I know are taught that 已经 is translated as the present perfect tense in English ("sth has happened..."); they know that in many cases it is not translated as "has".

Now getting them to not translate 随着 as "with" is downright impossible, but that's another story.

[tooironic]

@daofeishi 此门已坏 = the door is broken (not has been broken)