Usage Of 曾 Other Than "Once"

[creamyhorror]

Only if there was an intention for him to leave in the first place! He has already left implies that there was an intention for him to leave, and he did it ahead of time. The example says nothing that implies that that is the case.

edit: I've reconsidered and I think 已经 basically emphasises the change of state that 了 shows. Sometimes this maps well to "already", sometimes not so much.

我跟A聊天，过了一会儿上了厕所。回到课室的时候，他已经不在了。

I chatted with A, then after a while went to the toilet. When I got back, he was gone.

I wouldn't use "already“ in the English sentence above, because it implies intent on A's part (as you said), which hasn't been shown in the sentence. 已经 on the other hand doesn't imply intent: it just emphasises that the situation had changed from what it was before, or what it was expected/hoped to be.

So I guess you're right that 已经 does not map fully to "already", but in many situations it does. And it doesn't just mark a completed action; it emphasises that the state has changed, against previous expectation. "我已经回家了，不能帮你" informs the listener that the speaker has gone home, contrary to the listener's hope. It also marks the successful completion of an intended action: 我已经做完了功课，可以出去玩吗？ (This is also an emphasis role, imo.)

Thanks for provoking some thinking on my part.

In Chinese, there are a lot of particles which have an English equivalent, but would not be translated as such. For example, 已经 (which is to 了 what 曾经 is to 过) means already, but "此门已坏" does not mean this door is already broken.

I agree with this. I think 已 in 此门已坏 is being used as a formal equivalent of 了, rather than being used to emphasise "too lateness" a la "already". A more informal expression would imo be 这门坏了.

[daofeishi]

I think "already" is a response to A's looking for his brother. Consider the sentence "We rushed to the station, but she was already gone." 'Already' emphasises the fact that she was gone, despite their hope that she would be there. Similarly, 已经/already tells A he was too late.

Generally speaking, I think the distinction between 已经 and 'already' is not as sharp as you imply.

Right, let us consider "we rushed to the station, but she was already gone." It means the following: We knew that she was going to leave the station, but tried to catch her before she left. When we got there she had left, i.e. our action was interrupted by an intended consequence, hence the already. Already is used whenever an intentional state has been completed ahead of time, or when our current action is interrupted by the fulfillment of another intended action.

I am not saying there is a sharp distinction between already and 已经, I am saying that the usage of the former is a proper subset of the usage of the latter. Perfectual modality is very general, already is not. You illustrate that yourself when you concede that the 已 in 门已坏 does not mean already.

Edit:

So I guess you're right that 已经 does not map fully to "already", but in many situations it does. And it doesn't just mark a completed action; it emphasises that the state has changed, against previous expectation. "我已经回家了，不能帮你" informs the listener that the speaker has gone home, contrary to the listener's hope. It also marks the successful completion of an intended action: 我已经做完了功课，可以出去玩吗？ (This is also an emphasis role, imo.)

Exactly, 已经 and the aspectual 了 should be seen as one and the same thing, really.

Thanks for provoking some thinking on my part.

Likewise

[daofeishi]

@daofeishi 此门已坏 = the door is broken (not has been broken)

Semantically speaking both mean the same thing, don't they? Yes, "the door is broken" sounds less contrived, but since "has been broken“ is a VP, it mirrors the Chinese grammar more closely than the AP "broken". I think it is more illustrative to translate 茶已经喝完了，能不能帮我再泡一壶 as the tea has been drunk, can you brew another pot for me than the idiomatically better there's no tea left.../the tea is all gone...

[imron]

Semantically speaking both mean the same thing, don't they?

Not necessarily, "this door has been broken" could refer to a door that was broken in the past but is fixed now, whereas "this door is broken" refers to its current state. Also, in a real world context you will never* see a sign on a door saying "this door has been broken", instead you will probably see something like "this door is broken", hence the reason the latter is IMO a better translation.

*for varying definitions of never

[daofeishi]

True. But it could also mean that the door is presently in a collapsed state, and the reason is that someone broke it. "The door is broken" is definitely a better real-life translation, but since "broken" in that case is an adjective and the discussion about verbal aspect does not apply, the translation is not as illustrative as the translation i tried to provide. Or at least my intention was for it to be more illustrative

[Joeychen]

Hi, a_u_s

Are you quite clear about the difference "曾"and once?

I am chinese, and i'd like to talk about what i feel about these two.

"曾" in chinese means "once", surely a marker of past sentence,showing the past experience

so if you leave out 曾, it's not about past situation any more, just like 我参与两个重大项目，

but if you can add 过 after the verbs to make it right. 我参与过两个重大项目

You need know "曾" is kind of written word, we dont use it as much as 过 in oral speaking,

but when we use it, we are supposed to say something important or material just as you said.

Besides, 曾 can be followed by 两次or 两三次 to implies that several times in the past sb. have done sth. in this case, it doesn't equal once, does it？

So go back to your sentence, since "two" is already added, it's no necessay to put "once",right?

Hope it's helpful to you.

[WangYuHong]

Not necessarily, "this door has been broken" could refer to a door that was broken in the past but is fixed now, whereas "this door is broken" refers to its current state. Also, in a real world context you will never* see a sign on a door saying "this door has been broken", instead you will probably see something like "this door is broken", hence the reason the latter is IMO a better translation.

In the *real* real world, shop employees are too lazy to write that much, so instead you'll just see a big arrow pointing at the other door...

[creamyhorror]

Exactly, 已经 and the aspectual 了 should be seen as one and the same thing, really.

Hmm...I think 已经 adds an emphasis that 了 alone doesn't, and is used in those two situations I mentioned.

One example of non-equivalency: I think using 已经 in the following sentence is slightly weird -

你做好了就回家。 When you're done, go home.

*你已经做好了就回家。 You're (already) done, so go home. [unnatural]

But if you changed it to

你已经做好了，就回家吧。 You're (already) done, just go home.

then I'd find it natural.

In this case, I think 已经 emphasises that the completion is factual and accomplished, which 了 alone may not do.

Overall, I take your point that 已经 doesn't fully overlap with "already". I'd say it has additional emphasis over solely using 了, though.

[daofeishi]

Hmm...I think 已经 adds an emphasis that 了 alone doesn't, and is used in those two situations I mentioned.

One example of non-equivalency [...]

Right. Not grammatically equivalent. There are circumstances where grammar and prosody dictate that you should use one and not the other. Functionally, however, they are the same: Both tag the verb as completed. I am not sure exactly how to classify the difference between them, but I am not sure if it has to do with factuality/accomplishment, because phrases like 如果已经学好了，你就可以不用再学了 should be grammatical. My initial thought was that it might only have to do with prosody, but I am not sure if that is right.

[lingo-ling]

曾 (or 曾經) expresses a past action or experience, and is often paired with 過. It can be translated into English using the present perfect, or the simple past with "once" (if the event indeed too place one time).

Unfortunatley, Chinese learners of English are often taught that 曾 = ever. This leads to the common Chinese-speaker's error: "Yes, I (have) ever..." Though it can be translated as "ever" in certain circumstances (questions, negatives, superlative statements).