Non-phonetic input systems to strengthen character knowledge

[Olle Linge]

For a while now, I've been toying with the idea of learning a non-phonetic input system. I know that some native speakers use these for faster input, but even though that would certainly be nice, that isn't my primary goal.

Instead, I'd like to increase my knowledge of characters by forcing myself to focus on components when I type. If I used a non-phonetic input system, I would have to have much more active knowledge about characters in order to type and I would be able to spot characters which I actually can't write by hand, even if I can recognise them easily.

To make things clear, I'm not talking about using a tablet to write by hand, I'm talking about keyboard-based non-phonetic input systems such as Cangjie or Wubi. This leads me to my first question: Are there any other systems that I should look into? What are their respective merits and flaws? Cangjie and Wubi are the ones I hear about the most, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the best in this situation.

My second question relates to the learning curve. How hard is to learn to use non-phonetic input systems? I switched from Qwerty to Dvorak many years ago, so I know what it feels like to not be able to type, but I assume that learning Cangjie, Wubi or similar would take much, much longer. In essence, I might have to learn how to type each individual character before I get the hang of it and start seeing patterns. Since I haven't tried yet, all of what I say here might be nonsense, please correct me if I'm wrong. Note that I don't necessarily intend to make this my only input method, I will most likely keep on using Pinyin whenever I need to.

My last question is more general. Has anyone tried what I propose here? This would probably have to be non-native speakers, because I doubt many natives would need to focus on character composition when they type. Having grown up with characters kind of makes that overkill. In general, any ideas, suggestions and questions are welcome!

EDIT: I found this article about Wubi, quite interesting.

[skylee]

You can also consider 九方 (this one is so easy that even I can understand it) -

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B9%9D%E6%96%B9%E8%BC%B8%E5%85%A5%E6%B3%95

http://www.q9tech.com/web10/page.php?c=16

But I would think that using handwriting input is a much better way to strengthen character knowledge. I used to use handwriting input when I was using my old window phone so that I would not forget how to really write in Chinese. Handwriting input is slow and tiring, but other than these I can't think of other shortcomings.

[imron]

Yes I have done this with Wubi, and wholeheartedly recommend it. Do a search for Wubi or Wubizixing on the forums and you'll find a number of threads discussing why it can be beneficial (for learners the major benefits are not really speed related but rather as you mentioned, related to being required to have active recall of the characters you are typing).

That being said, if your focus is on Traditional characters (which I assume it probably is seeing as your location says Taiwan) then Wubi probably isn't a great choice because it was designed originally for Simplified. Although there have been extensions made to incorporate Traditional characters, Wubi's Simplified origins definitely show through (there was a thread about this a while back). Unfortunately I have no experiece with Cangjie to compare and contrast.

There aren't any other major shape based input systems that I can think of, however some time ago, someone posted on the forums about a new IME they had created called Jade Gazebo which might be worth a look.

Regarding length of time to learn, it can take a few weeks of regular practice to build the muscle memory for which shapes belong to which fingers, and then more practice after that to develop typing speeds similar to what you might get with a pinyin based system and beyond.

As for difficulty, they're actually not that difficult to learn, they just require practice. Also for example, many modern Wubi IMEs also include mixed mode Wubi/Pinyin input so you can type in either. This is great for when you want to mostly use Wubi but then need to type a character you can't quite remember how to write.

[Olle Linge]

But I would think that using handwriting input is a much better way to strengthen character knowledge.

I agree, but I'm normally using Linux and it's notoriously difficult to find hardware and software that works well. From what I've read online, some software that support Linux doesn't do it very well. If I were to stumble upon a hardware + software solution that I knew would work alright before I bought it, I would probably settle for that. I haven't found that yet, though.

That being said, if your focus is on Traditional characters (which I assume it probably is seeing as your location says Taiwan) then Wubi probably isn't a great choice because it was designed originally for Simplified. Although there have been extensions made to incorporate Traditional characters, Wubi's Simplified origins definitely show through (there was a thread about this a while back).

I found the thread and I've read it now. I have a question, though. What does it mean that the simplified origins "show through"? I read somewhere that you actually input simplified characters, but that they show up as traditional. If that's the case, it's almost useless (and what to do with characters that have merged into one single simplified character?). Since I'm not really after something that works 100%, I might accept that there are minor quirks, such as some specific characters causing problems. Major problems like the one I just mentioned wouldn't be okay, though.

[imron]

There are modes that exist where you type simplified but it outputs traditional, but as you mentioned, that's sub-optimal for a variety of reasons. There are also other modes where they have extended 'roots' specifically for traditional characters, and that's mostly what I was talking about when talking about poor support for traditional.

By the simplified origins showing through it's things like when both the traditional and the simplified character are made up of the same keys and you have a clash, then the simplified character might be shown as the first option (easily selected by space, compared to the traditional one which may require a number selection), and the same is true when a simplified combination (e.g. a word with 2 or more characters) clashes with a traditional character the simplified character will have preference (sometimes you might even need to scroll through several pages of simplified candidates just to get to the traditional character). Also for most IMEs that support the traditional 'roots' the number of multi-character word combinations is typically much smaller or non-existent for traditional characters and so on.

Traditional character support in Wubi appears more to be there to allow people who mostly type in Simplified to type the occasional Traditional character when needed, rather than being something geared towards typing Traditional characters effectively. Granted a Wubi IME could be written that emphasises Traditional characters, however seeing as Wubi is a mainland based technology, that's probably pretty unlikely to happen.

It might be worth playing around with Wubi just to have an understanding of it, however if Traditional characters are your focus you'll probably be better off with Cangjie which was originally designed with Traditional in mind.

[Demian]

I've been toying with the idea of learning a non-phonetic input system

Go with it! It's worth learning! Best of luck! I wrote a post on the pros and cons of learning Cangjie/Wubi a couple of months ago. You can find it here.

I'd like to increase my knowledge of characters by forcing myself to focus on components when I type

It will help but don't lean too much on Cangjie, or Wubi for that matter. Cangjie is useful but practicising on paper is still the best way to appreciate the beauty of characters and memorise them.

Are there any other systems that I should look into?

Go for Cangjie!!! I am saying this not merely because I use the system. I have tried Wubi and I must say Cangjie is more logical and elegant. Also, once you get the hang of the system, Simplified characters and Kanji are a child's play.

Another advantage of choosing Cangjie is that there are several good resources available online. I am also working on a small Cangjie course. You can have a look at it here, if you want!

Also, Cangjie is the first Chinese input system. It came long before Pinyin based systems. (Kindly correct me if I am wrong.)

How hard is to learn to use non-phonetic input systems?

It won't be more difficult than learning Dvorak. It took me three to four weeks before I stopped using Pinyin entirely. Or, two (in extreme cases).

Has anyone tried what I propose here?

我是印度人和我用倉頡輸入法打中文。(I am from India and I use Cangjie.)

[Takeshi]

It's a great idea, but I sorta feel that once you get really good at cangjie, in the end you are still mapping sounds to muscle memory in your head. Like when I type common words, I would read out the reading of the character in my head, and my fingers would just move to type that. I could totally see myself forgetting how to write a character, but being able to type it in cangjie.

Perhaps as proof that my mind works this way can be seen that I sometimes make typos just like a pinyin typer would if they selected the wrong character. Like I'd want to type this character with this meaning, but instead I typed its homophone or near-homophone by accident. You'd think that this problem should be nonexistent if you use a structural input method... but hey, it happens to me.

Of course I do know the rules for canjie (good enough; I'll admit not 100%), and this means when I encounter an /unknown/ character or a character I rarely ever type, I have to stop and think about it for a second about how to decompose and then write it; only in this case do I even relate to the shape of the character.

But at least that's how my head works, maybe some people really do "think" in characters in writing? I know for sure I don't though.

[Yadang]

Olle Linge, this sounds like a really great idea. I curious to know what input method you ended up choosing, and how much it helped. Do you still use it now? Why did you end up choosing the one that you did?

[Olle Linge]

Unfortunately, I ended up not going through with this. I wasn't too impressed by 倉頡 although I can't remember exactly why right now and the other methods I found turned out to be either impractical for traditional characters or very hard to get working on Linux, so I just skipped the entire idea. However, I still think that, at least in theory, this is a great idea and perhaps I should take another look and see if I can fix this. I don't have time to write a lot of Chinese by hand, but if I accomplished some other goal at the same time, it would be much easier to motivate spending time on it. Thanks for reminding me about this thread.

[Yadang]

Yeah - I the amount of Chinese I write on a computer compared with the amount I write by hand is more by far (which I'm sure is true for most people) - it would be really great if this would help enforce character writing or at least getting a better understanding of character composition (which would also probably help with writing)...

 

My pleasure! Do let us know if you ever look into it more and try one out!

[imron]

@Yadang, if you are using simplified Chinese, then as mentioned above, I would definitely recommend Wubi.  There are plenty of existing threads talking about this on the forums if you do a search.

[Yadang]

Imron - unfortunately I use traditional more than simplified... Thanks for the suggestion though! However, you said earlier: 

 

 

There are modes that exist where you type simplified but it outputs traditional, but as you mentioned, that's sub-optimal for a variety of reasons. 

But I wonder if, because it's been a while, if the system hasn't been updated... Maybe they've figured out better support for traditional? I'll check out the forums and see if anyone's talked about this recently...

[imron]

But I wonder if, because it's been a while, if the system hasn't been updated...

No.  It's an intrinsic part of the design.  You can't change it without radically altering the system, which would never see wide adoption.  There was an update of Wubi in '98 that changed a couple of the roots in order to make some characters more obvious/optimal, however it achieved very little success.  So little, that when the next update was introduced (the one that included support for traditional roots), it was based off the '85 roots rather than the '98 ones.

[Yadang]

Ah man, that's too bad... I guess I'll have to look elsewhere for traditional... You mentioned Jade Gazebo, but I went to his site and it seems to be non-existent... Any idea what happened with that??

[imron]

Nope.

[tysond]

On the topic of Wubi, I'm surprised that not many Chinese people know it either.

 

One lady on my team uses it, and she told me that there's only one other person on our floor who knows it.

Those two have "secret" conversations by typing the wubi codes for characters to each other in instant messenger chat sessions.

[imron]

On the topic of Wubi, I'm surprised that not many Chinese people know it either.

Many of them are under the impression that it is harder than it actually is due to the way they had to learn it at school - usually memorising codes from a book without the use of a computer for practice!  Learning that is of course quite difficult.