Research: What do you find hard to translate?

[Elizabeth_rb]

Dear All,

Please can you take a minute or two to tell me what you find hard to translate into Mandarin or what you find hard to express? What Mandarin structures do you find hard to get and would appreciate help with/more practice on?

Some ideas are things like:

about

and

someone *who* does something etc

I'm especially interested in the thoughts of those who've been studying Mandarin for some time and have reached a fair competence and generally a good level. What do you still find challenging?

A former colleague and I are writing a book for advanced learners, which we want them to find useful, so your ideas and 'difficulties' would be very helpful to us in making this book really meet the needs of the target audience.

Thanks in advance!

[anonymoose]

If the book is seriously for advanced learners, then it needs advanced topics. Things like

about

and

someone *who* does something etc

are really basic topics.

[Elizabeth_rb]

Yes, true, but that was just something to get the ball rolling. Having said that, I've known several long-time learners who never really got to grips with any of the three things in that list....=)

If you think those are too simple, what WOULD you like to see?

[hbuchtel]

I do very little En->Ch translating, but in case it is helpful here is an example of a Chinese sentence that I had to write and re-write several times before settling on a final English version.

越南“医圣”黎有卓（1720～1791），在学习中医理论的基础上，结合当地情况有所创新与发明，撰《海上医宗心领全帙》（66卷）。

The Vietnamese 'medical sage' Lê Hữu Trác (1720-1791), credited with a certain amount of originality and insight, combined local [medical] knowledge with the Chinese medical theory that he had learned in writing the 66 volume text haishang yizong xinling quanzhi.

The Vietnamese 'medical sage' Lê Hữu Trác (1720-1791), credited with a certain amount of originality and insight, combined local [medical] knowledge with Chinese medical theory in writing the 66 volume text haishang yizong xinling quanzhi.

The "在学习XX的基础上...撰XX" part gave me trouble. Generally speaking, dividing typically long Chinese sentences into English sentences without getting that 'run-on' feel is a challenge.

I would imagine that learning how to write a good long sentence in Chinese (perhaps combining several English sentences) would be a good skill for you and your colleague to focus on.

[Elizabeth_rb]

Yes, it would certainly be a good one for later chapters/volumes, thanks!

[skylee]

deleted.

[anonymoose]

I've known several long-time learners who never really got to grips with any of the three things in that list....=)

Long-time learners and advanced learners are not necessarily the same thing.

It's good that you are thinking about meeting the needs of the target audience, but you need to be clear on who the target audience is first. If you make a basic book and call it advanced, beginners will be put off by the title, and advanced learners will scoff when they see the content. There's nothing wrong with including the things you listed, but maybe calling it an elementary or intermediate book would be more appropriate.

If you think those are too simple, what WOULD you like to see?

Perhaps a discussion of various stylistic uses of language. For example, all grammar books explain how to use 了 in more or less the same way in terms of signifying completed actions and so on, which is of course important, but in the real world there are many situations where the 了 is optional and its inclusion or exclusion is determined more by style than grammar. Very few books cover this aspect.

[li3wei1]

also the idea of rhythm and number of syllables. I think there are many situations where a two-syllable word is 'correct' and a one-syllable one would not be, or vice versa, because of the rhythm of the surrounding words, but I've never seen it clearly explained.

[Elizabeth_rb]

The rhythm idea is a terrific one! That's something I remember from my later undergrad studies and is well worth spending some more time with , thanks! I'll also pass on the 了 suggestion.=) That's something that you can meet in chapter 3 of a beginners' book and go on to write a PhD thesis on!

Oh and don't worry about being certain of our target audience - whilst you're right that long-time learners are not always advanced, the senior co-author is a long-time teacher of all levels at a good UK university (without even considering my own experience of learners) and she knows her stuff.=) The book is for final year undergrads who've already studied for 3 intensive years including one in China or Taiwan and is based on methods they've enjoyed in class. Scarily, some really don't 'get' some things, even though they ought to be considered 'advanced'....

Thanks for the thoughts. Any more, anyone??

[anonymoose]

When the old HSK system was in use, the requirement to graduate after a 4-year degree in Chinese in China was to pass grade 8 (at least that was the requirement at Shanghai Jiaotong University), and grade 8 is considered intermediate level. So as you can see, even those studying their entire degree in China are only required to be at intermediate level. So someone completing a degree in Chinese in the UK, even if they have spent a year in China, is by no means necessarily at an advanced level. Of course, "advanced" means different things to different people though.

[Elizabeth_rb]

Yes, you're quite right about the differing idea of levels - something I've been interested in for some time. Try asking different people what they understand by 'fluent' too!!=)

For clarification purposes, the meaning of 'advanced' here is the same as the Chinese publishing houses use when they release 高级textbooks.

HSK was always rather hard to distinguish in terms of levels (and the old exam was notoriously hard), and IELTS isn't much better. I've met a good number of 中国留学生over the years with varying IELTS grades and that they're often only required to have 5.5 etc to read a Masters here stuns me! Using proficiency exams as a yardstick is interesting, but not always reliable - I'm sure you'll agree. I also heard of someone who'd got old HSK 11, but didn't know how to distinguish between 肥 and 胖。

Anyway, if you can think of any other good ideas that I can pass on to the senior author. We are interested in getting the students' perspective - and her initial sample chapter contained a reminder to put the date in the right order and, when I questioned that as too simple she said, 'it is, but students still get it wrong'! Eek!!=)

[Michaelyus]

Remembering that subordinate clauses come before the predicate. Among them, "location where" and "time when" being commonly forgotten. Subordination in general would be a big topic (probably covering several topics).

Under-use of 就 and 才. You could bring this under the subordination topic as well.

Proper use/translation of adverbs. English adverbs and adverbial clauses seem often to be best expressed with resultative complements, and not necessairly with structures that end with 地 (assuming they've got the right 'de' in the first place).

The near-compulsory nature of sentence-final particles in colloquial speech, as well as the issue of which ones go with which types of phrase.

Topicalisation, especially when it results in the dropping off or changing of various parts of speech (the grammatical subject changes, the object may disappear, what the main verb and what the relative clauses are may change etc.).

[WestTexas]

I find it hard to translate things that turn into really long relative clauses in Mandarin. For example:

The boats in the river by the town where he works are mostly fishing boats. (if anyone knows how to translate this, I don't know and my tutor didn't get it either)

or

The food in the cafeteria at the school where I used to work is bad.

I feel like I understand 就 pretty well and 才 OK because both were covered extensively in the classes I took, but other connective-type words like 以、而 、于 were not covered as thoroughly, and I think they merit it.

[skylee]

For the first one, consider 在他工作的小鎮旁有一條河流，河上的船隻大多是漁船.

[Elizabeth_rb]

Brilliant! That's exactly the sort of stuff I'm looking for! Every single one will be passed on (even the example sentences) to my colleague! Keep 'em coming!

[lingo-ling]

When there are two Chinese nouns together, it can be difficult to determine whether it's two nouns that should be separated by "and", or whether the first noun modifies the second noun.

Quickie example: 教育訓練 = "education and training" or "educational training"?

(I usually translate it as "training"!)

EDIT: Oh, "into" Mandarin. Sorry.

Usually it's very long relative clauses I find the hardest to translate. I rarely translate E>C.

[Elizabeth_rb]

Thanks Lingo-ling. I think both your comments are very valid and, from forum replies here (and elsewhere) and from a two-day Chinese lang event i attended over the weekend where about 60% of the speakers were non-native, I can say with conviction that attributive 的 (relative clauses etc) are the single biggest problem. Most int-adv learners don't even seem to attempt them! I'm going to recommend that the book contain multiple exercises of increasing difficulty covering this topic.

[lingo-ling]

Chinese really could use a relative pronoun! Thai has thii and Malay has yang. Why can't Chinese have one? They're useful!