Meaning of 所

[aristeon]

Hi everyone,

I just read the following sentence:

正如校长约翰·汉尼斯在毕业典礼上所说的, 这不过只是人生旅途的一个开始而已

What does 所 mean exactly in this sentence?

Thanks

[Ludens]

Here, I think it means:～V | that which

[陳德聰]

Here, the 所V的 refers to "all the things/everything" (he V-ed.)

[skylee]

Not sure I understand. Does it carry the all/every meaning in that context.?

[WestTexas]

what 约翰·汉尼斯 said at the graduation ceremony. it forms a noun. This usage is very common in formal Chinese. I see it in my dictionary a lot.

[aristeon]

Thanks everyone. I think I understand this sentence now: )

[Hofmann]

Although 所<verb> implies all of which is <verb>ed, the main function of 所 is forming a noun phrase with the following verb.

In Mandarin, it most likely has 的 after it, thereby rendering either 所 or 的 around the verb useless, but people use it when they want to sound sophistimacated.

[陳德聰]

I'd like to address skylee's question in #4.

If it does not carry that meaning, what meaning does it carry? Without the 所, would the meaning of the sentence change? I think we can all agree on the function of it, but I sat here saying the English translation to myself with and without any "all" and found that despite the fact that the word is not needed in English to achieve the same effect, I think the 所 here adds precisely that meaning.

[Tiana]

To say "所V的" represents "all the things/everything (he V-ed.)" would put some unintended emphasis on the Chinese structure. "What he V-ed" would perhaps be a more neutral representation of "所V的".

In fact, if a learner asks me about this 所, I'd first tell them to understand the phrase as if 所 is not there. When the next question comes - which is "So what is the effect of 所 in the phrase?", I'd say 所 is used to lend the phrase some formal air. Of course, 所 is also often seen in fossilized phrases in non-formal situations.

[skylee]

I don't think 所 carries the meaning of all/every in that context.

PS - take a look at the 助(1) explanation of 所 in the Taiwan MOE Dictionary.

虛字。置在動詞前，暗示動作達到的事物。如：「前所未聞」。論語˙顏淵：「己所不欲，勿施於人。」

[陳德聰]

Are you trying to tell me that the 所 in 前所未闻 is the same as the 所 used in this context?

Edit: Because to me, the 所 in 前所未闻 actually supports the idea that 所 carries a meaning of "all" or "everything" that is verbed.

[creamyhorror]

To say "所V的" represents "all the things/everything (he V-ed.)" would put some unintended emphasis on the Chinese structure. "What he V-ed" would perhaps be a more neutral representation of "所V的".

In fact, if a learner asks me about this 所, I'd first tell them to understand the phrase as if 所 is not there. When the next question comes - which is "So what is the effect of 所 in the phrase?", I'd say 所 is used to lend the phrase some formal air. Of course, 所 is also often seen in fossilized phrases in non-formal situations.

Completely agreed. I think a hint of "all that" can be perceived in certain usages, but it's not strong enough to warrant translation as such.

Edit: Because to me, the 所 in 前所未闻 actually supports the idea that 所 carries a meaning of "all" or "everything" that is verbed.

I would just interpret that phrase as 前未闻[的东西].

正如他所说的 means "Just as he said [in regard to a specific topic]", not "Just like everything he said [in regard to the topic]", imo. The implication of "all" isn't there.

(This reminds me of the expression maru de in Japanese, which is basically always used in conjunction with mitai/you to mean "it's as if [X is the case]". But maru de alone supposedly means something like "entirely"/"in entirety", even though realistically I think people think of it as meaning "it's as if". It's a similar case of assigning a meaning to a word because of the implied meanings that commonly occur when that word is actually used in an expression.)

[陳德聰]

Well fine then.

I am trying to think of similar examples where you could translate with an "all" but they just aren't coming. Can't shake the feeling though, must just be that my connotation metre is broken.

[renzhe]

I agree with Hofmann. It was a nominaliser (used to make a noun out of a verb) in classical Chinese, so its use today sounds formal, and is usually used in a 所V的 combination. 所V alone is rare today.

To me, as a learner, it carries the connotation of "all", but this is often secondary. E.g. in the original sentence, 所说的 is referring to the speech, not a small part of it. No need to use "all" in the English translation.

I am trying to think of similar examples where you could translate with an "all" but they just aren't coming.

所有的 is the classic example, where "all/everything" is strongly implied.

Wiki (as usual) has a good summary:

In all Chinese languages, particles are used to nominalise verbs and adjectives. In Mandarin, the most common is 的 de, which is attached to both verbs and adjectives. For example, 吃 chī (to eat) becomes 吃的 chīde (that which is eaten). Cantonese uses 嘅 ge in the same capacity, while Minnan uses ê.

Two other particles, found throughout the Chinese languages, are used to explicitly indicate the nominalized noun as being either the agent or patient of the verb being nominalzed. 所 (suǒ in Mandarin) is attached before the verb to indicate patient, e.g. 吃 (to eat) becomes 所吃 (that which is eaten), and 者 (zhě in Mandarin) are attached after the verb to indicate agent, e.g. 吃 (to eat) becomes 吃者 (he who eats). Both particles date from Classical Chinese and retain limited productivity in modern Chinese languages.

[Hofmann]

Just want to comment that it is the same 所 as in 前所未聞. Without 所, 前未聞 is not a noun phrase. To see "前未聞" would make me expect an object. "前未聞之," maybe.

[Arreat]

The exact meaning of this sentence is: As principal John Hanis has said in the commencement, it's just a new start of journey of life.

We Chinese use words like: [如你所说的那样=如你说的那样=如你所说=如你所言]，[如你所做的那样=如你做的那样=如你所做]

to represent meanings like: [As <someone> has <said>], [As <someone> has <done>].

The 所 in these phrases itself doesn't have special meaning, it must be used like I wrote before. In fact, maybe it do have meaning itself,

but that's not a good way to learn Chinese or any other language. I speak Chinese everyday, but I never thought about questions like

what is the meaning of 所 in 如你所说. Every language has its own special grammer structures, I think this is one of the structures.

In my humble opinion, you should just remember special structures like this. Don't try to figure out what every character means exactly.

Remember them as a whole unit, and keep using Chinese as much as possible. I hope this can help you guys here. Thanks.

Admin Edit: If you want to introduce yourself, post it in the Introduce Yourself Topic, rather than as an off-topic PS in a random thread.

[lingo-ling]

It's like the "what" in:

"Just like what Principal John Hanis said at the graduation ceremony..."

Note that 所 can be omitted, but its presence makes the sentence clearer, and in my non-native estimation, slightly more formal.

他(所)說的話 = "the things he said", "what he said"