The importance or not of learning grammar, classical Chinese and other random things

[Arreat]

HEY! Before I come to this forum, I never know I can write so many words in English!! And it seems you guys can understand what I posted!! This is GREAT!! I just realized that I wrote a lot of Enlgish! I'm considering to hire a English native speaker to help me to learn faster! You know what? I never went to any English speaking country before! haha! YAY!

[renzhe]

To be fair, I don't think that Arreat is trying to be offensive. I think that this is the first time he's in an environment like this (mostly experienced learners), and that most native speakers give the same type of advice to foreigners because they are simply not used to meeting foreigners who actually know Chinese. Also, I think that having this conversation in English makes it harder for him (imagine most of us discussing this in Chinese), so he spells out some things in detail, in order to avoid being misunderstood. This might come across as rude to the rest of us who use English for most daily communication, but it could also be an attempt to avoid misunderstandings. I think that most of us appreciate a certain amount of tolerance when we speak Chinese and can extend this to those speaking English. After all, scaring away native speakers is not really helpful for the forum.

Arreat, this is a forum where most active users are a bit crazy about the Chinese language and have learned it for a long time. Most of us (who are not native speakers) don't have your knowledge of Chinese, but we know quite a bit about LEARNING Chinese, and what works and what doesn't. And as soon as you get past the first steps of learning Chinese, you will find that grammar books and even Classical Chinese (for advanced people) become rather important. And the problem is that you are making very strong and general statements like "Dear OneEye, don't read Classical Chinese", which are only true for total beginners. OneEye is not a total beginner, nobody posting in this thread is.

Most kids in China will have read at least one of the four classic novels. They are all written in 白话, but they are absolutely full of Classical Chinese, especially the poems. If you want to read one of those (and most advanced learners will want to, at some point), then you will need to understand some basics of Classical Chinese, at least enough to follow some of the conversations and poems. So I think that saying things like "Dear OneEye, don't read Classical Chinese" is quite ridiculous. If he wants to read Classical Chinese, he should! People learn Chinese for different reasons, after all.

[Hofmann]

Note that around here "Chinese" usually means 漢語. To refer to 普通話, one usually says "(Standard) Mandarin."

[Arreat]

@renzhe Damn! I really don't know much about this forum! Really sorry for what I've said. And it's surprising to me that you know 四大名著 are written in 白话! I only read 2 of them. And I can't understand many words of them too! Here is a question: Do most active users of this forum all read 四大名著？ If the answer is yes, then I'm like WOW with my mouth opened really big! Thank you for telling me these. I should adjust my attitude when I post in here. I'm glad that I find out this forum. I really learn a lot from here.

@Hofmann, duly noted. Thank you!

Life of programming is really lonely sometime especially I often work at the night. So I'm very happy to help other people with Chinese. Communication with other people itself is interesting and important to me. HEY, here is another question: Why do you like Chinese so much? Chinese culture? Because of Chinese husband/wife/GF/BF? To me, language is just a tool, I will not learn a language just because the language itself. I do love some of beautiful Chinese poems. But that's not why I learned Chinese. I'm a Korean Chinese. Chinese is a foreign language to me too before 14. I learn guitar because I'm very crazy about music, but not language.

[OneEye]

My intention was not to scare him away, just to inform. I can be a bit blunt sometimes, and sitting in front of my computer all day translating has probably affected my mood.

Arreat, I think it's great that you have such an interest in this forum. Like I said, it would be great to have more native speakers. Make sure and take some time to just read around and get familiar with the place, and the people who post here. That way you can tailor your advice to your audience. To give you an example, my ability in Chinese is probably the lowest in this thread, yet I manage to find work translating academic papers and am able to read academic books in my field with no problem, and I can usually work through selections from 古文觀止 without having to look at a 白話 translation very much at all (as long as I have a dictionary!). Renzhe is reading 紅樓夢 right now, which scares me half to death. And so on. The type of advice we'd benefit from is much different than the type of advice a novice would benefit from, and the best way to know who is who is to read around the forum.

HEY! Before I come to this forum, I never know I can write so many words in English!! And it seems you guys can understand what I posted!! This is GREAT!! I just realized that I wrote a lot of Enlgish! I'm considering to hire a English native speaker to help me to learn faster! You know what? I never went to any English speaking country before! haha! YAY!

Ha! This really made me laugh, because I remember the first real conversation I ever had in Chinese (in a cab in Shanghai), and I felt exactly the same way. "He understands me! Wow! It isn't a fake language after all!" Keep it up!

[Hofmann]

Do Have most active users of this forum all read 四大名著? ("most" and "all" disagree)

Definitely not. There are some (perhaps most who have posted in this thread) who have read at least one. However, it is better to assume that there is a wide range of ability/experience in Chinese, from being unable to utter a proper "你好" to being able to write 律詩 and pronounce it in reconstructed Middle Chinese.

[Arreat]

@OneEye, that's completely no problem. I'm considering maybe some of you know more Chinese knowledge than me. I'm a jerk sometimes, I know that very well. But I really like to help other people too, though it's not good sometimes.

I remember the first time I picked up 红楼梦 deciding to read and threw it after about 20 minutes. I think I will never read that again in my life. I'm sorry I don't know much about 文言文. But I think I can understand why people like you are interested in it. It's like my mother never understand why I love computer so much. People just like somethings that other people may don't have interest. But hey, I do know some Standard Mandarin Chinese, feel free to ask questions about it. And I know Korean too, it's my mother language, though not as good as Chinese. I think many of you have read a lot of Chinese books. But have you read the book 平凡的世界 written by 路遥？ I just googled keyword of "平凡的世界 site:chinese-forums.com" and got 30 results. It seems that some people have recommended it before. I like reading too. If you are all great Chinese learners, I think the only thing I can do for you is to recommend great books you may like. Thanks again. I think I can know many people here, it's really a big luck of me.

[Guest realmayo]

Out of interest, which would you think would be more difficult for a foreigner (say, native English speaker) to learn (to a high, 'nearly fluent' level): Chinese or Korean?

[Arreat]

Definitely not.

Thank you for correcting my grammar.

I don't like 四大名著. I like books written by authors like 鲁迅、三毛、王小波、韩寒、龙应台 and many foreign authors. Anyway, nice to meet you, everyone

[Arreat]

Out of interest, which would you...

It depends. Janpanese may learn Korean very fast because the grammar and pronounciation are similar. But native English speaker may find both of them are difficult to learn. But pronounciation of Korean is easier than Chinese. The rules of pronouncition of Korean are similar to English. People who are new to Korean may find it is very easy to pronounce a Korean word but have no idea what it means.

I think if someone can master a language which is not his/her mother language, he/she can learn some other languages very fast. The ability and experience people got from learning a language can make things easier.

I also find my Chinese friends feel Korean is much harder than English. I think it's because that different language choose different range of IPA. My Chinese friends just can't pronounce ㅅ and ㅆ correctly no matter how many times I read for them. Some of their muscles of tongue are just never trained for some vowels in Korean before. It is really interesting to know this fact.

[anonymoose]

I can't speak for the grammar because I never got far enough with Korean to really appreciate the grammar. The pronunciation was what really killed me. I can't distingish ㅂ and ㅃ. There are also a few vowel sounds which seem too similar to me.

I think, relatively, the pronunciation of Japanese is the easiest out of Korean, Chinese and Japanese.

[Arreat]

The pronunciation was what really killed me.

LOL. And I find 애 얘 에 예 으 이 의 also drive some of my friends crazy too... Some people believed that Korean are a fork of ancient Mongolian. Because some of Korean have the same cyan-blue birthmark or hair in the back the same as Mongolian when they were little babies. My mother told me that I had too. After a few years it will disappear. But I really doubt about that....I will check it out when I have a child(as a nerd, it's also doubtable too....really sad....) But being a Mongolian is pretty cool, they are strong, love nature, and have a honorable history. Being Korean is just not that cool....arrogant, sad history, sigh...

[skylee]

I like books written by authors like 鲁迅、三毛、王小波、韩寒、龙应台

I thought 龍應台 is banned on the Mainland. Or is it just some of her books (like 大江大海)?

[Arreat]

I thought 龍應台 is banned on the Mainland.

Huh? Really? I don't know. I bought the book 亲爱的安德烈 which I like very much. And I saw her book 目送 in book store. I don't know much about politics. I know 龙应台 is active in politics. Maybe it's because political reasons?

[Arreat]

I think things are getting much better nowadays than before in China. Maybe in the near future, Chinese can also access youtube facebook, people are much richer and healthier. Anyway, in the every area things are getting much better, people I know are confident and happy. I'm the youngest in my department, most of my colleagues have children. Though prices of house and stuffs are high, and still many problems like society injustice, corruption, wealth gap, pollution, population. But I do think people are just fine. I can feel my colleagues are satisfied with their life. I'm not a pure Chinese, I really hate Chinese a few years ago because of their bad habits. But now I like Chinese, I even begin to admire Chinese. I think these people can make China a better nation. I really do. I said these not because I earn a lot of money, in fact, I don't earn many money. I know there are a lot of people are living miserable life in China. I don't know how to say my feeling, I remember the words from movie The Shawshank Redemption: "Rememver Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things". It's pretty like that hope thing.

Hey, what do you think? I mean those who are living in China now, no matter Chinese or foreigners. Do you think things will be better in China?

[imron]

And it's surprising to me that you know 四大名著 are written in 白话

This I think gets to the crux of what OneEye was talking about. Some people here have been learning Chinese for many, many years. Don't be surprised when they know things about the Chinese language.

Holy shit...

Please avoid the use of swearing and expletives in your posts.

[daofeishi]

Why do you like Chinese so much? Chinese culture? Because of Chinese husband/wife/GF/BF? To me, language is just a tool, I will not learn a language just because the language itself.]

People on here are motivated by different things, but few people stay on just because their wife "told them to" learn it. Most people, at least those that stay on long term, are highly motivated and very knowledgeable. Some people are long-term expats in China who are learning the language in order to partake in the culture around them, some are professional linguists who do research in the phonology of Middle Chinese, some are avid language learners for which Chinese is just the next conquest, some are (aspiring) professional historians of China, and some are even students of Traditional Chinese Medicine who are getting their degree in China. And then there are the dilettantes like me

Keep that in mind. Whatever any Chinese person knows about Chinese is probably common knowledge here too. People might even have an even more informed or nuanced view on many topics than most native speakers have, since people have devoted time and effort to not just learning Chinese, but also studying the language itself.

Also:

Being Chinese is just not that cool

- British Admiral William John Napier

Being Irish is just not that cool

- the New York Times

Being Serbian is just not that cool

- Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf, Austro-Hungarian Chief of Staff

Being Tutsi is just not that cool

- Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana

Maybe we should leave that kind of generalizations at the doorstep?

[Arreat]

Please avoid the use of swearing and expletives in your posts.

hmm...seems you guys are strict here, huh? ok, I won't use them anymore.

Keep that in mind.

ok. It seems some of you really know a lot of Chinese or some other languages, especially in linguistic part. Man, I don't know what to say. I never met people who knows a foreign language so well before. I need some time to adapt it.

[felixfan87]

Most of the works of 龙应台 are banned on the mainland. If your looking for something other than 《野火集》and 《亲爱的安德烈》 you'll need to go to Hong Kong or Taiwan.

[daofeishi]

Hmmm. Did he unregister or get banned?