Some problems with a few chinese words.....

[graphis_7]

Hi all,

I have been self-teaching myself mandarin using an android app using TrainChinese and have came across a few words, despite listening to pronounciations from a few more online sources, still cannot quite understand the "sound"- hopefully someone can help me decipher them:

容- I came across at least 2 different versions on reading this character (either Rong (with a clear R sound) or Yong, or sometimes it sounds like both). Is there any difference between taiwanese mandarin pronunciation and mainland pronunciation?

詞- Again, at least 2 difference versions of sounds depending on which dictionary i used (either Ci (Cee....i) or Chi (Chi...i). Is there any difference between taiwanese mandarin pronunciation and mainland pronunciation?

入- is it Ru(with a clear R sound), or Yu (曰-ou). Again, it sometimes sounds like either or to me.

I dunno why i am having so much problems over seemingly stupid words....sign

Thanks for the help

[roddy]

Welcome to the site.

Could you link us to the online sources so we can hear what they actually say?

[graphis_7]

ok..i will try

1. 入

if we used http://tw.dictionary.yahoo.com on 入 and used the instant pronounciation- it sounds more like "YOU" than "RU"

if we used http://www.mdbg.net/ on the same word, it sounds like "RU"

thats just one of the example, and it is screwing my mind!

[graphis_7]

For 容:

1. http://www.forvo.com/word/容/ under mandarin chinese- sounds like "YONG" (no r sound)

2. Using http://tw.dictionary.../dictionary?p=容 sounds like "RONG"

For 詞

1. http://www.mdbg.net/...ct/chindict.php - sounds like "Ci" or "Cee-i"

2. Using http://tw.dictionary.../dictionary?p=詞 sounds like "Chi" completely different sound....

[roddy]

What's your native language? Does it have similar sounds?

[graphis_7]

my native language is cantonese, the sound is not similar at all. For those characters above i really just need "one single right answer" on how to pronounce them in mandarin...thats all....

do they sound like 2 difference versions of sounds to you Roddy?

[graphis_7]

Please......any help would be nice

[Mindmaxd]

In mandarin their sounds are these: 容 rong2 词 ci2 入 ru4

Yong Chi Yu are from Cantonese,There are many differences between taiwanese mandarin pronunciation and mainland pronunciation,Tainwanese is the same as cantonese,you can see the link shows 粤语

[OneEye]

Taiwanese is most certainly NOT the same as Cantonese. Not even anywhere close.

OP, I usually recommend The FSI Pronunciation and Romanization Module. If you're wanting to learn Taiwanese Mandarin, there will be a few differences in pronunciation, but you'll pick those up later.

On the other hand, if Cantonese is your native language, if you can read Chinese, I'm sure you could find materials specifically for Cantonese speakers to learn Mandarin.

[Angelina]

You're using an android app to learn Mandarin on your own, yet you can't read Pinyin!!!

[graphis_7]

whoa whoa, how can taiwanese be the same as cantonese?

none of these sites i listed on top use 粤语 pronunciations, they are supposed to pronounce in mandarin....

***I just need those three characters taken cared off since they give me the most issues, if someone can give me pointers on which voice pronunciation is the most helpful to listen to that will help me enough! Pinyin alfabets doesnt help me much- have been having bad experiences learning from them.

Thanks!!!

[Demonic_Duck]

容 and 入 begin with pinyin "r" sounds, but don't expect it to sound exactly the same as an English "r", it doesn't. It's closer to the "g" sound in "genre", but a little softer. Some speakers (possibly those who learned to speak Cantonese first) do indeed seem to pronounce it almost like a "y" sound. That's my experience, anyway.

[Mindmaxd]

Oops sorry op I think I made a big mistake ,taiwanese belongs to Manlam ngy(闽南话) and not the same as Cantonese,Taiwannese is a branch of Mandarin but not all the same,so there are many differences in pronunciation.

[skylee]

Perhaps you could try to listen to the pronunciations on this website -> http://www.edbchinese.hk/lexlist_en/ I think they are quite clear.

[陳德聰]

Listening to the recordings used on those sites, I hear the "same" sound for each recording. OP needs to understand that the spectrum of sounds that collectively can be considered the "same" as each other for pinyin /r/ and /c/ are a different group of sounds from his/her native Cantonese.

Both recordings of 入 and 词 from those dictionaries were correct. You are dividing them into different sounds in your head and that is because of whatever existing language divisions you have from Cantonese and presumably English.

[Angelina]

Pleco has an audio "bundle", I'm not sure if it's still free to download it though. The pronunciation is decent. I hate dictionaries that sound like Microsoft Tom, this one is more natural.

[OneEye]

Oops sorry op I think I made a big mistake ,taiwanese belongs to Manlam ngy(闽南话) and not the same as Cantonese,Taiwannese is a branch of Mandarin but not all the same,so there are many differences in pronunciation.

Wrong again. Taiwanese is not a branch of Mandarin, nor are there "many differences in pronunciation." It's a whole different language, just like Cantonese is.

[Hofmann]

Suggestion: Don't describe pronunciation in a language you don't speak or haven't looked up. In Cantonese 入 obviously has an entering tone (入聲). It's definitely not "Yu."

Also, while Taiwanese Mandarin is one standard of Standard Mandarin, Taiwanese Minnan is not a branch of Mandarin. Min Chinese descends directly from Old Chinese, while all other Chinese languages passed through Middle Chinese.

OP, 容 and 入 begin with the same initial. This varies between ɻ (retroflex approximant, how Americans say "r" but without lip rounding) and ʐ (voiced retroflex fricative, like the "g" in "genre" but with the tongue bent up more so that the tip points behind the alveolar ridge). "Retroflex" might be a bad term. Bending the tongue so that it points back is totally wrong and doesn't exist in any language I know of.

詞 begins with the same initial as in (Standard) Cantonese, an aspirated voiceless alveolar affricate, written as t͡sʰ in IPA. It's articulated at the alveolar ridge.

[陳德聰]

Lol @Hofmann the reason people try to describe sounds is because not everyone is functional in IPA and the study of phonetics.

In Cantonese the initial consonant for 容 and 入 are the same as well, and they both sound more or less like an English "y" sound. It's not unreasonable to think that this "y" sound from Cantonese is influencing the judgment here on what consonant is being heard.

It feels to me more like OP was looking for an answer to if it is possible that he/she was actually hearing two different sounds. The answer is yes, but to Mandarin speakers the alternation that Hofmann described has a strong enough feeling of "same"ness that they are effectively the "same" sound.

[roddy]

I've suggested this to Hofmann in the past, but it turned out we should all learn IPA.

While the sounds you link to differ slightly, a native speaker would identify them all as ru / rong / ci.

if someone can give me pointers on which voice pronunciation is the most helpful to listen to that will help me enough! Pinyin alfabets doesnt help me much- have been having bad experiences learning from them.

Any will do. Best thing is to choose a convenient source (the audio in the dictionary you use most, the pronunciation section of your textbook) and stick to that.

Not sure what your bad experiences are with pinyin, but it's worth learning properly - which means using it enough that interference from other languages you know is minimised.