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Some problems with a few chinese words.....


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Posted

Cantonese and Mandarin are more closely related to each other than either are to the Min dialects (which includes Taiwanese).

The pronunciation of pinyin R like a Y is very likely interference from Cantonese, as is the pronunciation of 詞 as "tsi" instead of "tsz". In Taiwan, the pinyin R sound is often pronounced like Z (as in "zebra") or even an L by people with a heavy Taiwanese accent.

Posted
I've suggested this to Hofmann in the past, but it turned out we should all learn IPA,

To talk about this accurately, you either have to learn

  • The terminology: For consonants, where and how it is articulated. For vowels, how high (or close), how front, and how much lips are rounded.
  • The letter in the IPA
  • The sound in examples. As examples can't always be provided, it's safer to go with the other two.

I have provided all three. Problem?

Posted

It's just awkward when you don't realize that your information is not accessible to the laymen among us, despite the accuracy.

  • Like 1
Posted

@Hofmann

詞 begins with the same initial as in (Standard) Cantonese, an aspirated voiceless alveolar affricate, written as t͡sʰ in IPA. It's articulated at the alveolar ridge.

I would be wary about saying that. What you are saying is technically correct in a way, but you need to remember allophonic variation exists; when I speak Cantonese, the "alveolar" initial I use in stuff before a high vowel sound like "i" in 詞 are somewhat palatalized, to the point that it would sound more like "ch" [tɕʰ] or something than the Standard Mandarin pinyin's "c" [tsʰ] sound, so I wouldn't be so quick to compare them. Now, I'm not a native speaker, but I'm pretty damn sure this is a commonly acceptable and okay thing to do in Cantonese.

Posted

Yes, it's common for alveolars to become alveolo-palatals before close vowels in Cantonese, i.e. /i/ and /y/.

...unless you differentiate between them such that, for example, 詞 sounds different from 池.

Posted

If Hofmann stickied a simple layman's guide or glossary about articulation terminology (which is something, over time, I've come to rely on when looking at a new language) then he could happily continue referring to it, while referring the layman to his link. But look at the wikipedia link for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulatory_phonetics -- in the past if I'd have clicked there for a quick intro to the topic I'd have run away immediately

Posted

I don't think that r -> y only applies to Cantonese speakers, I've heard it in Shanghai, for example.

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