lingo-ling Posted November 23, 2012 at 04:10 AM Report Posted November 23, 2012 at 04:10 AM Cantonese and Mandarin are more closely related to each other than either are to the Min dialects (which includes Taiwanese). The pronunciation of pinyin R like a Y is very likely interference from Cantonese, as is the pronunciation of 詞 as "tsi" instead of "tsz". In Taiwan, the pinyin R sound is often pronounced like Z (as in "zebra") or even an L by people with a heavy Taiwanese accent. Quote
Hofmann Posted November 23, 2012 at 04:39 PM Report Posted November 23, 2012 at 04:39 PM I've suggested this to Hofmann in the past, but it turned out we should all learn IPA, To talk about this accurately, you either have to learn The terminology: For consonants, where and how it is articulated. For vowels, how high (or close), how front, and how much lips are rounded. The letter in the IPA The sound in examples. As examples can't always be provided, it's safer to go with the other two. I have provided all three. Problem? Quote
陳德聰 Posted November 24, 2012 at 04:50 PM Report Posted November 24, 2012 at 04:50 PM It's just awkward when you don't realize that your information is not accessible to the laymen among us, despite the accuracy. 1 Quote
Takeshi Posted November 24, 2012 at 09:37 PM Report Posted November 24, 2012 at 09:37 PM @Hofmann 詞 begins with the same initial as in (Standard) Cantonese, an aspirated voiceless alveolar affricate, written as t͡sʰ in IPA. It's articulated at the alveolar ridge. I would be wary about saying that. What you are saying is technically correct in a way, but you need to remember allophonic variation exists; when I speak Cantonese, the "alveolar" initial I use in stuff before a high vowel sound like "i" in 詞 are somewhat palatalized, to the point that it would sound more like "ch" [tɕʰ] or something than the Standard Mandarin pinyin's "c" [tsʰ] sound, so I wouldn't be so quick to compare them. Now, I'm not a native speaker, but I'm pretty damn sure this is a commonly acceptable and okay thing to do in Cantonese. Quote
Hofmann Posted November 25, 2012 at 12:52 AM Report Posted November 25, 2012 at 12:52 AM Yes, it's common for alveolars to become alveolo-palatals before close vowels in Cantonese, i.e. /i/ and /y/. ...unless you differentiate between them such that, for example, 詞 sounds different from 池. Quote
Takeshi Posted November 25, 2012 at 10:50 PM Report Posted November 25, 2012 at 10:50 PM I don't think anyone in the past hundred years does that. Quote
Hofmann Posted November 27, 2012 at 06:21 AM Report Posted November 27, 2012 at 06:21 AM <-This guy. Quote
Guest realmayo Posted November 27, 2012 at 09:08 AM Report Posted November 27, 2012 at 09:08 AM If Hofmann stickied a simple layman's guide or glossary about articulation terminology (which is something, over time, I've come to rely on when looking at a new language) then he could happily continue referring to it, while referring the layman to his link. But look at the wikipedia link for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulatory_phonetics -- in the past if I'd have clicked there for a quick intro to the topic I'd have run away immediately Quote
renzhe Posted November 27, 2012 at 12:43 PM Report Posted November 27, 2012 at 12:43 PM I don't think that r -> y only applies to Cantonese speakers, I've heard it in Shanghai, for example. Quote
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