外籍生本地校 Foreign students in local schools

[skylee]

I saw this programme yesterday and I think it is quite good. It is about a group of foreign students studying the local curriculum in a Hong Kong school (except one Romanian student who grew up on the Mainland but now study in an international school). Except the Romanian student who speaks in fluent Putonghua because of her background, other students mainly speak in Cantonese. The programme itself is in Cantonese with Traditional Chinese subtitles.

I don't really understand why some of the students find it hard to learn Chinese in such an environment. I am not sure if it is any different from, say, a second generation ABC learning English in a school in the US.

TVB website - http://mytv.tvb.com/...t/137831#page-1

Youku - http://v.youku.com/v...c5OTU3Mzg4.html

Youtube Part 1 - http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Youtube Part 2 - http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

[yonglin]

Thanks for posting, skylee!

Although there was quite a bit of content I didn't catch (my lacking Cantonese!), I found it interesting enough to see it all the way through!

As to your question about learning Chinese, it seemed to me that most kids learned conversational Cantonese to a reasonable level. On the other hand, I can't help but think that most of these students would be in for a huge shock if they end up attending a regular, local school at the secondary level -- both for cultural reasons and because they'd almost certainly be lacking behind their peers in written Chinese especially. I can't help but think that although putting these kids in a special school seems caring and nurturing enough, it might actually hurt them in the long run (especially those whose parents cannot afford to send them to an international school once they've finished their "cultural immersion" experience).

As to whether this is any different from immigrant children learning English in, say, the US, I'd definitely say yes. Second-generation ABCs (or immigrants in general) would almost certainly be put in a class with local native speaking classmates from day one. Recent arrivals might receive additional ESL help, but they would most definitely be placed in a local class (for good or bad), and would not be "sheltered" in the way that these kids are.

Oh, and why does it look as if they're scanning invisible barcodes on the kids' foreheads when they're entering the school...?

[skylee]

You've misunderstood. That is an ordinary school. The high concentration of foreign students is not planned. It is a result of the high concentration of foreigners in that community (Lamma, which is an island that attracts foreigners). Half of the students in that school are local Chinese. There are schools like what you described but that one is not.

I can't help but think that most of these students would be in for a huge shock if they end up attending a regular, local school at the secondary level -- both for cultural reasons and because they'd almost certainly be lacking behind their peers in written Chinese especially.

I can understand the cultural reasons (like they probably won't be interested in national heros like 文天祥 and his poems). But why do you think they can't catch up with ther peers in written Chinese? This is what happened to the Romanian girl - she couldn't catch up, despite her background. I think if they need immersion, they are very immersed. And they go to the same school and are taught the same things. I know it is difficult - there are a lot of characters/words, a lot of strokes, and they are difficult to write etc. But if the Chinese kids can learn it, why can't they? Could it be because they have a choice? Because they have fallback options?

That is not a barcode reader. That is a thermometer that takes the kids' temperature. And then the kids scan their proximity cards (probably octopus cards) on the reader on the table to register their attendance.

PS - I know that the difficulty is probably geniune (though I don't understand it), which is why when a Pakistani young man got into the police force, or got into the university to study Chinese medicine, or when an Indian reporter got a job at a Chinese channel, they became news.

[imron]

I think most of those kids are still young. Some of them would probably still find tying their shoelaces hard. They have a disadvantage in that their home environment isn't Chinese, but by the time they graduate from highschool, I doubt you'll find their Chinese to be worse than most of their peers.

For the Romanian girl it's slightly different, especially being at an International school, there's even less of an environment for her there. She took kindergarden in China then a couple of years at a local school in Hong Kong, but then moved to an International school. As the show mentions, that gives her a huge headstart over many other foreign students at that international school, but it's still going to be nowhere near the level of someone who'd had full immersion at a local school for their entire education. I'm sure by the time she graduates highschool she'll be able to speak, read and write reasonably decent Mandarin and Cantonese.

[hbuchtel]

why do you think they can't catch up with their peers in written Chinese?

I think they simply don't put in the required work.

I recently moved back to the US from China, and my 6-year old daughter, who is in 1st grade in a public school here, has more daily homework for her weekend Chinese class than she does for her regular school! A lot of parents here think that kids in elementary school should have little or no homework...it is quite a different attitude.

That was a good program, thanks for posting about it.

[Takeshi]

Oh yea, thanks for posting this. I always want to watch more of these sorts of TV shows to practise my Cantonese, but I never know where to start or what to watch. >_<

Hmm, interesting. If it was the case that these kids came in in the middle I'd sorta understand, but it sounds like some are even starting out in the schooling system completely in local schools but are still having difficulty. I am just as confused as skylee as to why these students can't catch up.

I guess the only thing you can get out of this is cultural differences. (I'll try to say this in the least politically incorrect way... >_<) It's no secret that Asian culture puts more of a focus on education and local Chinese schools have much more homework etc. Perhaps this sort of cultural background at home that encourages education is necessary in order to succeed at a local Chinese school? I guess this is like what skylee says about them "having the choice"; if there is no expectation for them to succeed from the start, and the kid knows that if they whine about it their parents will send them to an international school and life will be easier then well...

There were a lot of recent immigrants (especially Chinese) to my schools (here in Canada); in fact, there was a stereotype that the Chinese students would generally get higher marks, especially in math and stuff. Some of this might be due to the superior(?) education they had received in China, but the stereotype holds somewhat even for people who were totally grown up here (or does it?); the only factor left that I think can affect it is cultural influence. If your parents force you to go to like Chinese school on weekends etc, and put a huge pressure on you to get good grades and succeed in class, maybe you do end up doing better?

The only difference I can think about of foreigners in Hong Kong versus in Canada, is that in Hong Kong it seems that most of the parents don't speak Cantonese at all, while in Canada most of the parents would speak English to a passable degree at least, and in many cases kids grown up here would prefer to talk to their parents in English, though they may speak a heritage language, while in Hong Kong, with the exception of that Romanian girl, it seems nobody speaks to their parents in Chinese. I suppose this may affect something?

[skylee]

Yes from this discussion I think we have identified the two main factors that affect those foreign students' achievement in learning Chinese even though they are in a very Chinese environment - 1) they don't speak Chinese/Cantonese at home because their parents can't speak it, and thus can't help them with the learning; 2) the drive and need for succeeding in learning Chinese.

It has been reported in the local news that ethnic minority students in HK find it hard to find work in HK and the main obstacle is their low Chinese level. Despite being born and raised in HK, learning Chinese is still a big challege for them. Some have opted for an easier route, i.e. getting a certificate of GCSE or GCE AS-/A-Level Chinese instead of taking the exam for the local diploma/certificate, only to find that local employers do not value such qualifications as they are seen as inferior to the standards required by the local qualification.

Currently, without a Chinese-as-a-Second-Language curriculum, very few ethnic minority students are able to obtain the HKCEE/HKDSE Chinese certification, which is a basic requirement for many tertiary education programmes and local jobs. As an alternative, many ethnic minority students opt to take the GCSE Chinese examination, which is a British examination that is equivalent to Hong Kong local Primary 2-3 level. The GCSE does not adequately prepare students for most job settings in Hong Kong, and is too easy for many ethnic minority students who have already obtained Primary 4-6 Chinese levels during their primary school years.

Before the Government can implement an appropriate Chinese curriculum for ethnic minority students, it should, as an intermediate measure, subsidise the GCE AS-Level and A-Level Chinese examinations for ethnic minority students. GCE AS- and A-Level Chinese exams are equivalent to about local Primary 5-6 and Secondary 1-3 levels respectively, giving students more options to achieve a higher level of Chinese proficiency. However, the examination fees of AS- and A-Level Chinese exams are as high as $2720 and $4080 respectively. In comparison, taking four core subjects and two electives in the HKDSE will only cost $2520. (source)

現有約七成非華裔就讀指定學校，予人錯覺以為是非華裔家長的偏向。事實是他們並無選擇，很多家長不願看到子女在主流學校處於不利環境中，學業、自尊和自信心受到傷害；但若讓子女入讀指定學校，學習跟主流脫軌的中文，最終又永遠跟不上主流。抱著「破釜沉舟」心態，讓子女入讀主流學校，卻又被政府假設其中文能力等同華裔，得不到任何支援。實情卻是他們很多連課堂內容都不能理解，不能有意義地參與中文課堂，其他科目亦受影響，徒然虛耗光陰，學成後跟文盲沒分別。雖然很多非華裔在港紮根數代，中文程度卻仍未如理想，以目前進度，他們仍需很長時間才能與華裔在公開試中競爭。令人傷感的是，每年只有十多名非華裔能升讀大學，大多沒法以教育改變命運，如斯教育制度反造成跨代貧窮。 (source)

[Meng Lelan]

It has been reported in the local news that ethnic minority students in HK find it hard to find work in HK and the main obstacle is their low Chinese level.

Research is going to be needed before solutions can be reached. For example, how long have they been in HK, what home situation do they have, how low is their Chinese level, etc. Also is their low Chinese level also a problem when applying to HK universities and colleges? Are HK education researchers becoming involved in this problem (research, proposing solutions, etc?).

I just watched the program --- so they are receiving all instruction in Cantonese? None of the schools in HK instruct in Mandarin?

[skylee]

The main language of instruction of most local schools is either Cantonese and/or English. I guess there are some that teach in Mandarin and English, but I am not sure.

As to their chances of pursuing higher education, I think we need to remember that language is only one of the relevant factors. Only about 18% of HK students can study in government-funded programmes in local universities so the competition is keen. This means that over 80% of school leavers, Chinese or not, have to take other paths (work or pay fully for their local/overseas degrees). So whether the ethnic minority students do well in other subjects and whether they can have the money to study unsubsidised degrees are also relevant. I imagine that a student can give up Chinese completely and study English / French etc plus other subjects and if he is good enough he does not need to know any Chinese to get in HKU or HKUST. But I suppose one can't pursue this path if his parents can't afford the tuition at an international school to begin with ... Ordinary students take the path that is called "JUPAS" and a pass in Chinese (actually more than a pass) is required. Other students can follow the non-JUPAS arrangements but understandbly there are few places available so competition is also keen.

[Takeshi]

As for tertiary education, it doesn't make sense to require Chinese for admission at all if half the universities don't even teach in Chinese...

Not being able to get into university could have to do with an overall lower average family income rate... but is that really the case for foreigners in HK? I wouldn't know.

EDIT: And wow seriously? So many foreigners live in Lanma Island? Why? o.o

[hbuchtel]

And wow seriously? So many foreigners live in Lanma Island? Why? o.o

No cars are allowed on the island, so it is (was?) one of the quietest places in HK that still had regular transportation to the city center. I almost took a job in HK in '03, and I was planning on living on Lamma, as it seemed like a really idyllic place. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of other foreigners are attracted to it as well.

[Meng Lelan]

I am extremely impressed with the the Romanian mother who knows Chinese and actively helps the girl with her Chinese homework. A contrast to Isiah's mother who can't help because she doesn't know the language. I think the parent(s) who understand and are interested in the target language contribute a great deal to the student's understanding and interest in the target language as well.

By the way why is this program subtitled? Or are all HK programming subtitled?

[Takeshi]

Yea, I'm surprised she even had to switch to an international school.

And aren't pretty much all Chinese shows in general subbed?

[skylee]

Yes most HK programmes are subtitled. English news is also subtitled (in English). I guess foreign programmes are subtitled in both Chinese and English (with newer TVs you can choose which one you like), and many are broadcast using NICAM in both languages.

[imron]

@takeshi, pehaps it's not that she had to, but that her parents thought she might get a better (for their own definition of better) education at an international school.

[大肚男]

I just want to say, that I really loved that report, eventhough I know absolutly no Cantonese.

It was really good practice for reading traditional characters

Please post any other interesting reports you find. Thanks

[carlo]

the two main factors that affect those foreign students' achievement in learning Chinese even though they are in a very Chinese environment - 1) they don't speak Chinese/Cantonese at home because their parents can't speak it, and thus can't help them with the learning; 2) the drive and need for succeeding in learning Chinese.

Chinese schools, in the mainland as well as in HK, place extreme demands on the parents - my sister-in-law spends hours every day drilling her son who is in primary school, and she sounds a lot like the drill sergeant in an Officer and a Gentleman. By contrast, when I was a child, my teachers would tell my parents *not* to help me with homework so as to have me develop independence and self-motivation. In Europe, I would assume that teaching the school curriculum is the teacher's job, not the parents'. Clearly foreign parents who have not been through the Chinese system, or do not speak Chinese, would find it hard to adjust, and as a consequence so would the children (I'm a hardcore Chinese learner, and I dislike it intensely).

[Meng Lelan]

In Europe, I would assume that teaching the school curriculum is the teacher's job, not the parents'.

Same thing in the US. My son wasn't doing well in math and the teacher simply told him to come see him for help before and after school. But that wasn't any help (!) so we ended up hiring a private math tutor now things are better.

[carlo]

Yes, well, maybe I place irrealistic expectations on schools in general. I am a European socialist after all. A friend in Shanghai with a child the same age as ours went to a few visit days last year -- at a parents' meeting the principal allegedly said that only families with a stay-at-home parent needed apply, ie. at least one parent was supposed to work full-time on... the child's homework. Seems crazy to me.