Does China's culture of cheating start in kindergarden?

[sthubbar]

Everyone,

Thanks for the stimulating conversation. There are some great points made.

imron - I did talk to one administrator and another parent. They just thought it was normal. See WestTexas' post.

WestTexas - Sounds like a great book and your summary is spot on.

renzhe - Great points, and the idea that the educational system contributes to the culture is the point of the post.

To be fair, I don't consider this a major issue. I was looking for just the type of feedback you have all provided. I assume lying to children is common in all cultures, I know it is in mine (American), anyone heard of Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the greatest lies the parent's cult, I mean religious, beliefs.

The lesson for me is to remember many things are realative and to let go of my own brainwashing that there are clear definitions of good and bad. I first received this lesson from one of my Chinese instructors during my first year in China. This teacher was a relatively young teach and his classes were always full because his classes were fun and people felt they were getting good value from them. There was another much older professor that taught in a more strict and traditional manner and her classes were usually poorly attended. I was talking once with the younger teacher and had mentioned that he was a "good" teacher and she was a "bad" teacher. He humbly said that he didn't look at it that way at all. He said simply that he teaches in a way that suits many people and she teaches in a way that suits a few people. That doesn't make one way good or bad.

[sthubbar]

kdavid said:

I could go on and on about my experiences and biases, but at the end of the day I feel my son will get a better education, and have a more meaningful childhood, in America than he will here in China.

kdavid, yes, please do go on and on.

My current mindset is that if my son stays in Chine until he is 10, than he will have a Chinese identity for the rest of his life even if he never returns here. It is my experience that if people leave their home country before the age of 5 and never return than it is difficult for them to try identify as a native of that country. The actual cut off age is debatable, though I think 10 is enough for him to form lifetime memories and attraction to one country and still young enough to form youthful memories and attractions to a new country. I would say that 20 years old and older is much too late to have much of a chance to really adopt a second culture. I also suspect that 15 years is also pretty late to be able to truly internallize a second culture.

So 0-10 years old Chinese indoctrination, 10-15 American indoctriniation, 15+ I have lost all control.

How much longer do you plan to stay in China and what is the oldest you want your son to be before you think it is imperative that he return with you to America?

[kdavid]

I'll briefly summarize my main concerns, as a long-winded diatribe wouldn't contribute much other than rancor to the current discussion; and I should preface this by saying that my concerns stretch well beyond just education.

I should also say that by no means do I believe Americans, American culture, and the American government to be infallible. I clearly have my own biases and priorities, to which my son (unfairly?) is being subjected. With that said, I'm doing for my family what I believe to be in their best interests.

1. Education

The system here produces test takers, not critical thinkers. The PRC lags behind the rest of the world in patents and higher education. I believe this is because their education system is built on an antiquated form of education dating back to the civil service examination system.

2. Childhood

Children here spend a majority of their free time in school or taking extra classes. "Play" and "hobbies" such as music, art, dance, etc. are scheduled, not spontaneous.

In my experience, the only children above the age of six to seven who regularly engage in spontaneous play (e.g. neighborhood kids getting together to play outdoor games, team sports, etc.) are those whose families' economic situation does not provide them with the opportunity to attend additional classes.

3. Adolescence

Once children reach middle school, they devote almost every waking minute to their studies. Few students "play" as Western adolescents would. They don't participate in competitive athletic teams. They don't date. They don't go to parties. They don't experiment with drugs.

Call me a bad parent, but I feel, in moderation, all of these things can be positive to a teenager's development. Of course, I won't give or condone alcohol or drug usage, but on the other end I am not an omnipotent and omnipresent deity who can monitor, control, and restrict every waking moment of my child's life.

4. Environment and Food Safety

I won't elaborate here as my concerns should be obvious.

5. Health Care

My son recently had some dental work done. The dentist botched the job and in turn had to remove the nerve. This has led to the tooth becoming discolored. Thankfully it's only a baby tooth, but this is something my son will have to live with for likely another 3 - 4 years.

My son recently had what seemed to be a routine cold which over a couple weeks developed into something more serious. We took him to three hospitals to see multiple doctors. No one could help us. Each doctor prescribed medicine without doing any routine tests. After another week he developed a very high fever (40.1 Celsius, 104 Fahrenheit). We were only able to control this with fever medication. I called in a favor and got to see the director of the children's hospital here in Harbin. She looked at my son, listened to his chest, prescribed more medicine, and then told us to take him home and let the fever run its course.

A simple Google search will tell you that a fever of over 104 is serious, and requires immediate attention as vital organs are at danger. The next day we took him to a fourth hospital and got him on an IV. After six days of the IV drip he's started to recover.

To reiterate my qualifying statement above: I know America also has its problems. The education system there is far from great, children carry guns to school, there is also pollution in big cities such as LA, violent crime is higher, and there are quack doctors. Knowing that, I would still rather have my child grow up in America than China.

My son turned three in August. We'll be moving home before he's five. I don't believe a year and a half of kindergarten will ruin him. And, of course, he still spends a lot of time at home with me so that I can replace the Chinese brainwashing with American.

One more thing:

I've worked with a couple ABCs. One moved to the US when he was four, the other eleven. The guy who moved when he was four was 100% American. The young woman, who moved when she was eleven, was very clearly Chinese. As such, I agree that the longer they spend here, the more inextricably tied their identity is with the "mother" culture.

[dwq]

I'd add that I get the impression a lot of us are arguing because rather strong words like 'good' or 'bad' are used. I doubt you'd find many people who agree 'cheating is (morally) good' in any culture. They might say cheating is a smart thing to do, or 'good' (for your future prospects), because the advantages outweighs the disadvantages, or they might say it is 'okay' (weaker word than 'good') to cheat since everybody's doing it and those who don't are put at a disadvantage, and it is not easy to get caught etc. etc., but I don't think many would say cheating is fair or moral.

[gougou]

The PRC lags behind the rest of the world in patents and higher education.

I think I get (and agree with) what you are trying to say, but those two points are questionable if not wrong. China processed a quarter of world patents in 2011, taking first place from the US for the first time. Its universities are catching up to Western institutions, with Beida taking 46th place in the Times Higher Education ranking. That is ahead of the best German or French universities, for instance.

Having said that, I'd rather see my kids (should I ever have any) become critical thinkers than register a great number of patents

[renzhe]

Yes, Chinese universities are catching up quickly! You see this by the number of top publications they are putting out now, compared to 5-10 years ago. Though, admittedly, the same few names keep popping up: Qinghua, Shanghai Jiaotong, Fudan, etc.

I think that this is another area where investment plays a role. There has been a trend of getting world-class haigui into China and into the university system, and it is showing results. It is scary how many top publications are done by PRC citizens, working out of US and European universities. Each university in Europe and the US has at least one (full) professor from China doing excellent work. China is getting at least some of them back, so things will shift a bit.

On the other hand, at least some of this excellence can be attributed to the sheer number of students in China and the work habits they are brought up with.

[skylee]

Re #26, the thread on the People's Republic of Cheating mentioned in my #4 is relevant.

[kdavid]

@gougou

Thanks very much for those informative links. I was basing my statement off articles read long, long ago.

I stand corrected.

[WestTexas]

Yes, Chinese universities are catching up quickly!

Is it that quick, though? According to the link gougou posted, it only has 2 universities in the top 200, which is less than... the US, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, Canada, Australia, Switzerland, France, Japan, Sweden, South Korea, Hong Kong, Belgium, Denmark, and Israel. I suppose if you count the Hong Kong universities, then China looks better, but they are part of a different system.

Apparently Chinese universities are getting better, but based on the link, it still looks like China is far behind western countries in higher education, especially considering China's huge GDP and population.

[renzhe]

I think it's very quick. These rankings do not change very fast. The top 20 have not changed in years (there are only minor changes in the ordering). Universities such as Caltech, Oxford, ETH and the like have so many major papers out there already, and so many Nobel Prize winners, so many distinguished alumni, all of which contributes to the ranking.

In order to overtake Caltech, for example, at the very least you need to produce 31 Nobel Prize winners, and have your alumni become professors in about 100 top universities. This takes time.

I am not intimately familiar with the Times ranking procedure, but most widely used ranking schemes use these factors for ranking (Nobel Prize winners, notable alumni, academic output present and past, patents, etc.) What is clear is that universities such as Fudan and Shanghai Jiaotong are now keeping top talent, and publishing major international papers. 10 years ago, this was not the case.

[jbradfor]

. China processed a quarter of world patents in 2011, taking first place from the US for the first time

Just to be clear on this, it means that a quarter of the patents were processed in China. It does not say anything about *who* filed the patent, e.g. a USA company filing a patent in China would count as a China patent (and for the record I have patents filed in both China and the USA), and it does not say anything about the *quality*. IMHO, a better metric would be looking at patents filed by host country of company, and even better would be add in some judge of quality.

Without those numbers, I don't believe this fact in itself indicates that Chinese people / companies (and by extension the Chinese education system, trying to get this post back on topic) is catching up in innovation.

[WestTexas]

These rankings do not change very fast. The top 20 have not changed in years (there are only minor changes in the ordering). Universities such as Caltech, Oxford, ETH and the like have so many major papers out there already, and so many Nobel Prize winners, so many distinguished alumni, all of which contributes to the ranking.

You say that, but there is that Singaporean university in the report that jumped 83 spots in one year. Seems like a sketchy methodology IMO.

[renzhe]

You say that, but there is that Singaporean university in the report that jumped 83 spots in one year. Seems like a sketchy methodology IMO.

No methodology is perfect, but Singapore has been investing huge amounts in recent years, and have built up close collaborations with some top research universities in the US. They exchange staff, run joint research projects, send their staff over to the US for a part of the year, and have attracted a lot of top talent in recent years.

But in the end, it's just one of many rankings, and once you get below the top 100, things are actually quite close.

[skylee]

Re the discussion of university performance/rankings. This article (in chinese) in today's paper might shed some light on how one should treat such rankings -> http://trans.wenweipo.com/gb/paper.wenweipo.com/2012/12/14/ED1212140011.htm

The topic of university rankings is 談到爛.

[xiaocai]

It starts in the hospital. So if your kids are born in China, they are doomed.

[frankwall]

It is a bit disturbing to say the least. Of course some Chinese firms have a reputation for copying western automobiles, aircraft, etc. I had no idea that this happens in kindergarten. Might be important to spread this message and make more people aware of what you saw...something should be done about it asap.

[gougou]

something should be done about it asap.

As in tariffs on drawings by kindergarten kids?

[frankwall]

As in tariffs on drawings by kindergarten kids?

Maybe something more in the direction of education....

[DSymes]

There are many good points and comments throughout this thread. I’m a Canadian man who has been in China since 1994. My wife is Chinese and our oldest daughter (2.5 years-old) attends a local kindergarten. I’d like to comment on a couple of the ideas discussed.

On cheating in kindergarten: When teachers give students an item to trace or a guide to color inside, it’s just part of learning just as a teacher can guide a student’s hand to practice writing letters. If the teacher completely draws a picture and calls it the student’s, that’s a different story. I’d say ‘sthubbar’ should know what work his son did on the “art” and more importantly ask him if he had fun making it. It seems everyone agrees that children should have fun at kindergarten so as long as that’s the case and he did take part in the work, hooray!

On cheating as a culture: No matter the country, people argue about whether teaching morals is the job of the parents or schools. As a foreigner in China I don’t see it as my role to attempt to change the school system or culture here. Therefore, I must make it my role to teach morals to my children as I feel appropriate. Of course they will be influenced by their surroundings but that isn't a valid excuse for a parent to blame for their child not growing into a moral, giving or honest person.

On the Chinese education system/learning: Teachers in Canada often say how ridiculous it is for parents to complain about schools not doing enough to teach their children when children are home many more hours each week than they are at school. In a study I read recently (sorry I don’t have the link) it showed that a child taught 1-on-1 one hour per day can learn all of the material taught in a normal day of school. Today there is an endless supply of very good educational videos, games and other materials available for home/self learning so parents can have their children learn all they need to know outside of school. If you want you can even have your child join on-line classes in your home country. Therefore, even if your child goes to Chinese school and learns very little of what you want him/her to learn, so what. We all have the resources to help our children learn what they need to know and to enjoy doing it. Children can still learn to socialize at school and it’s up to parents whether they want their children to join extra classes on chess, a musical instrument, or join a hockey team instead. It’s not valid to say that your child doesn't have the same options in China as back home as it’s up to you and your child to choose what activities they take part in outside of school.

On being multicultural: Those of us living in multicultural families should be hoping that our children take the best of both cultures not all of one but of course there’s also the chance that they take the worst of both cultures. Again that’s the job of parents to try to guide our children in the right direction. The comparison to immigrant families may be useful to discuss but is not an apples to apples situation. Some immigrant children in Canada try to keep their parents culture and traditions, some reject them completely, and others flip-flop during different phases of their lives. If we raise our children with both sets of traditions and thoughts I think they will have a much easier time living in and adjusting to whichever country they move to at any point in their lives. I think each of us can be a culture of 1 and a multicultural child can embrace this.

On being different: Most children go through phases of wanting to fit in and wanting to stand out. The 1 black student in a class with all white students is bound to feel left out sometimes and special at others, even if there is no racism whatsoever. The same thing applies to us foreigners in China and to our children. Yes we are different and that may be sometimes good and sometimes bad but hopefully we and our children learn to take the good with humility and the bad with tolerance.

On the ideal childhood: Many parents imagine that if their child doesn't have the kind of childhood they had, they are missing out. I enjoyed climbing trees, building forts, and swimming because I spent my childhood summers in the countryside. Children in large cities likely had very different summers but that doesn't mean they weren't good childhoods. Today many parents may be annoyed by their children spending endless hours on-line instead of playing outside. Each generation and each child will have a different childhood experience. Our children can also have great childhoods in China and if/when they go back to our home countries their new friends will undoubtedly say they are lucky to have had experiences that they didn't have the chance to enjoy.

[zhouhaochen]

It is an interesting point and I think most people would agree that in general being clever (which means getting the quickest way to the best result, if necessary including cheating) is valued higher than honesty in China. This is the case in other countries too, but I would agree that it seems to be more prevalent in China than most developed countries.

I personally however would not want to judge how much this could be based on culture - it might very well be based as much on the current and recent economic / political situation is in. Parents want their children to learn, what they think worked well for them and maybe their own parents before.

When looking at recent PRC history, until not very long ago, children were taught that honesty, loyalty, social responsibility, equality etc. are the most important values in life. Getting ahead, earning money etc. were not. That was communism. What did that bring the PRC? Starvation, the cultural revolution and poverty. Then the values changed, almost the complete other way round. And that stopped starvation, massively reduced poverty and is accepted by most (not all) people as a very positive thing.

Based on recent PRC history, being selfish, clever and if necessary dishonest (plus of course work hard, be ambitious, study hard etc.), to achieve what needs to be achieved, while remaining loyal to only a selected group of friends/family (关系), is not only beneficial to yourself, but beneficial to society.

To teach anything else in a kindergarten would not benefit to the child nor society.