學長, 學姐, 學弟, 學妹

[lingo-ling]

學長 - a male student who is ahead of you in terms of school years

學姐 - a female student who is ahead of you in terms of school years

學弟 - a male student who is behind you in terms of school years

學妹 - a female student who is behind of you in terms of school years

So, if I'm a freshman in college (1st-year undergraduate), a male sophomore, junior or senior would be my 學長. This is complicated by the fact that some of your 學長 may actually be younger than you, if, say, you started college when older.

Is there any more concise way of expressing these terms in English? We don't really have this concept in English, so I've relegated these terms to the bin of "untranslatable words". If needed, I may say "more seasoned/experienced student", such as "In my lab research, I was helped by more experienced students."

[skylee]

This is complicated by the fact that some of your 學長 may actually be younger than you, if, say, you started college when older.

Why "complicated"? Would this be a problem? How about "more senior students" or "students of higher/more senior forms/classes".

This concept also applies to martial art learning. If you become a pupil of a master, those who were already his/her pupils when you started are more senior than you regardless of their age.

PS - 學兄 is another term for 學長. Depending on the school and where you are, 學長 can mean prefects.

[lingo-ling]

By "complicated" I mean that it rules out the potentially more elegant solution of saying "older student".

And "senior", in a student context, has a specific definition (at least in the US): it means either "12th grader" or "4th-year undergraduate".

[Takeshi]

Interesting, I never heard of these words. In Japanese these are 先輩 and 後輩

But I have heard of the words: 師兄、師姐、師弟、師妹 that seem to mean the same thing; not sure if there is any difference in meaning.

[muirm]

But I have heard of the words: 師兄、師姐、師弟、師妹

When I'm discussing 武侠 with my language buddy in English, we often have difficulty expressing these relationships. I usually just suggest "older/younger classmate", but this translation sucks for multiple reasons:

1. As the OP mentioned, these titles aren't chosen based on age, but rather seniority based on when you entered the tutelage of the master, and generational differences (e.g. 师叔 for your master's male classmates). This reminds me of all those awkward interactions 袁承志 had because he was the 师叔 of people older than him. You could replace older/younger with senior/junior, but I feel that is less-clear overall.
   
2. It doesn't differentiate male/female (you could add it on, but that makes it even more awkward).
   
3. They don't work as forms of address.
   
4. They sounds awkward.
   

I don't really have a point other than I agree that these terms are difficult to translate concisely. I think the most natural translation into English is to have the characters call each other by name, and then maybe add some extra dialogue or something to make sure their seniority/relationship is clear to the viewer/reader.

[imron]

I agree that these terms are difficult to translate concisely

I would go so far as to say these words are impossible to translate into English concisely (well at least if you want a good translation anyway).

[yaokong]

If you have been translating for a while, you will know that these terms are in fact not very difficult to translate: you don't translate them at all. Because if you do, they will sound strange and out of context. What you do is recreate the text in the target language. In this case, you just choose the word which the target language would use in a similar context. On the other hand, if you specifically want to add some "foreign touch" to your translation you can even consider simply keeping a few foreign terms (in pinyin), explaining them in a few words.

Edit: I just reread the first post, it never mentioned any text, I guess I am just too used to translating texts. :-)

[lingo-ling]

Absolutely: when translating, the context, the purpose of the text and the target audience need to be taken into consideration. Much of the time, sex and seniority aren't even relevant in English, so "fellow student(s)", "schoolmate(s)", "lab partner(s)", "fellow researcher(s)", "alumnus/a/i/ae" or even "friend(s)" may work best.

[imron]

these terms are in fact not very difficult to translate: you don't translate them at all. Because if you do, they will sound strange and out of context. What you do is recreate the text in the target language. In this case, you just choose the word which the target language would use in a similar context.

Sure, no problem with that. The point that muirm and I are making (at least with 師兄、師姐、師弟、師妹 in for example a martial arts context), is that whatever you do, you're going to end up missing something in translation. As lingo-ling said, much of the time sex and seniority aren't that relevant in English so it's difficult to make a natural sounding translation without dropping that information. More importantly than that though, I think the 师 variants also convey a strong bond and sense of obligation that is also difficult to convey in natural sounding English.

Here's a real world example: from time to time I've needed to introduce my own 师兄 to someone in English, and there's never any nice, concise way to explain the nature of that relationship to someone who doesn't speak Chinese.

[Takeshi]

Well, I brought up 師兄、師姐、師弟、師妹 and now everyone is talking about martial arts! Are these words used mainly/only for martial arts relationships? (Makes sense to me since it says 師) I swear I heard this in a university student setting.

[imron]

To me, in a strict sense, in order to be 师兄、师弟、etc, with someone then you both need to be 徒弟 of the same 师父 which is to say you have both 拜过同一个人为师 (the terms are also used between the 徒弟 and the children of that 师父). You'll sometimes hear it in a university/school setting, but it's maybe not strictly correct or possibly used jokingly (or depending on the situation and the relationship between the teacher and the people in question, could be totally correct). The terms are not limited to martial arts, but it's very prevalent in that area. You'll also see it anywhere where there is a person with a certain skill that he/she passes on to others - this can include chefs, artists, calligraphers, TCM etc.

I think it's a different (although similar) concept from 學長, 學姐, 學弟, 學妹 which seem to just be anyone at the same school. One way to think of it is that the 师 variants are people connected by a 师父, and the 学 variants are people connected by a 学校.

[skylee]

師兄、師姐、師弟、師妹 is a wider set that covers 學長, 學姐, 學弟, 學妹. You can use the former four terms instead of the latter four. It is fine (at least as far as I know). It is not the other way around.

[Michaelyus]

Context can also be expanded in the English to include the nuances of the Chinese meaning. I think some clauses and other long descriptive phrases need a mention: "We both studied under / at..."; "we both went to...", "someone who was in one of the upper / lower years at...", "a few years ahead of me at..."; "we both had ... as mentor"; "recognised from class... at...". All these are quite feasible in English, and although they might not be as concise as "fellow classmate/student", they are certainly good enough to be used in most translations.