5th tone that is preceded by 2nd tone becomes 4th tone?

[Orpheus]

I have noticed that in a lot of words that consist of 2nd tone followed by 5th tone (e.g. 孩子, 便宜), it seems to me that the 5th tone is pronounced more like a 4th tone. I tried searching for the rules but couldn't find any. Am I correct in my observation, or could it be a regional thing? Most of the audio I listen to is in Standard Chinese (aka with Beijing accent).

[tooironic]

What you're hearing is 轻声, the neutral tone, or the "5th" tone as you mentioned. It certainly doesn't sound like the 4th tone. Pronouncing 孩子 as háizì would sound very very weird.

By the way, FYI, Standard Chinese ≠ Beijing accent.

[Guest realmayo]

The neutral tone is certainly pitched different depending on what tone comes before it. I suppose it's logical that following a the rise for a second tone you've got to decend quickly to produce a neutral one and some of that descending is expressed in the pronunciation of the neutral one. Arguably, I guess, the neutral tone isn't completely neutral.

[renzhe]

Have a look at this: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/25079-%E6%98%8E%E7%99%BD-tones/page__hl__mingbai

The pitch of the neutral tone strongly depends on the tone preceding it. When it follows the second tone (your examples), its pitch is central. So a very high pitch (end of the 2nd tone) is followed by a neutral pitch, which sometimes reminds people of a fourth tone. It's not a fourth tone, though, it sounds distinctly different. It lacks the stress and the range of a fourth tone.

[Orpheus]

Thanks for the replies.

Re Standard Chinese, what I meant to say is the audio I listen to uses Standard Chinese that features a lot of characteristics of Beijing dialect, like 儿 for example. I mentioned it because I was aware that the use of neutral tone could vary slightly from one dialect to another.

Thanks, renzhe, for the links. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_phonology#Neutral_tone) is particularly very informative. I didn't know that the neutral tone had several different pitches! Could any of you who understands the difference between the pitches (renzhe perhaps?) explain it in more details to me as I don't I think I understand what the symbols in the table mean. It would be great if you could also record the examples there as it would be so much the clearer. Many thanks for all the help.

[renzhe]

The pitch is indicated on a scale from 1 to 5. The numbers correspond to the standard tone chart used to teach Mandarin tones, i.e. 1 is the lowest pitch, 5 the highest. It's good to have this diagram in front of you when thinking about tones.

A 2nd tone-5th tone transition like 便宜 will start around pitch 3, rise to pitch 5 (this is the 2nd tone), then drop back down to pitch 3 (neutral tone). This drop is often perceived as a falling tone, but it isn't. 宜 doesn't really change in pitch much, it is relaxed and pronounced at pitch 3. A fourth tone would have 宜 start very high (pitch 5) and drop rapidly (and with stress) all the way down to pitch 1.

Mandarin tones are trickier than some people think, because they are fooled by the neat 4 categories. It's essential to practice pronouncing words, where tones come in combination!

[Guest realmayo]

According to The Sounds of Chinese by Yen-Hwei Lin, it's easier for learners to follow the system that renzhe refers to, which focuses on the "the shortness of the neutral tone", as in the following table:

1st tone + neutral 妈妈 ma1ma is 55 + 2

2nd tone + neutral 爷爷 ye2ye is 35 + 3

3rd tone + neutral 姐姐 jie3jie is 21 + 4

4th tone + neutral 弟弟 di4di is 53 + 1

But the book says that while some say (like renzhe) that neutral tones don't have any pitch contour (i.e. no rising or falling), other studies say that they do! If you want to reflect "the actual phonetic pitch movement" of the neutral tone then the book suggests this table:

1st tone + neutral 妈妈 ma1ma is actually: 55 + 41

2nd tone + neutral 爷爷 ye2ye is actually: 35 + 31

3rd tone + neutral 姐姐 jie3jie is actually: 21 + 23

4th tone + neutral 弟弟 di4di is actually: 53 + 21

I have to say that to my ear there definitely is pitch movement to neutral tones and I find the second table illustrates that well. But it's not something I've every consciously thought about so if you find it confusing I'd stick to the first table to make it easier.

[Orpheus]

Wow, thanks so much, renzhe and realmayo! Really appreciate the help. I have always suspected the neutral tone was nothing simple and heavily influenced by the tone preceding it, but I had no idea it was so complicated!

On another (still related) note, how do you pronounce 哪里? I think I always hear na2li3 but my textbook says it na3li. Also, is the pronunciation the same for nali meaning where and nali used as a humble expression denying compliment?

[andysun731]

na2li3 for meaning where.

na3li for a humble expression denying compliment, usually used as reduplicated words 哪里哪里.

[renzhe]

On another (still related) note, how do you pronounce 哪里? I think I always hear na2li3 but my textbook says it na3li. Also, is the pronunciation the same for nali meaning where and nali used as a humble exp<b></b>ression denying compliment?

Note that tone sandhi is not indicated in pinyin. So although it sounds like na2li3, it is actually written as na3li3. The rising tone is simply how the third tone is pronounced when followed by another one.

Both na3li3 and na3li are correct, I'd say that the second is more prevalent. It's just the question of whether you stress the second syllable or not. In both cases, the first syllable is pronounced as a rising tone (sounds like the 2nd tone), but written as the third tone.

[Orpheus]

Thanks for the replies.

andysun731 has mentioned that the pronunciation depends on the intended meaning, but renzhe, you didn't seem to indicate that in your post. So just to be sure, does the meaning really determine how it is pronounced?

In both cases, the first syllable is pronounced as a rising tone (sounds like the 2nd tone), but written as the third tone.

As far as I know, when the 3rd tone is followed by the neutral tone, like in jie3jie for example, the 3rd tone is pronounced as a half 3rd tone, not the second tone as it would in 3rd tone followed by another 3rd tone (e.g. ke3yi3). Can you tell me why in this case, na3li (the one with the neutral tone, not the 3rd tone), na is pronounced with the 2nd tone? Shouldn't it be just like jie3jie?

[renzhe]

As far as I know, when the 3rd tone is followed by the neutral tone, like in jie3jie for example, the 3rd tone is pronounced as a half 3rd tone, not the second tone as it would in 3rd tone followed by another 3rd tone (e.g. ke3yi3). Can you tell me why in this case, na3li (the one with the neutral tone, not the 3rd tone), na is pronounced with the 2nd tone? Shouldn't it be just like jie3jie?

This is a mysterious part of Chinese phonology.

Without the neutral tone, it's quite straight-forward: 3rd tone turns to a rising tone if followed by another third tone, and into a half-third tone if followed by anything else. It's fully pronounced if at the end of an utterance (although many speakers use a half-third tone there too, unless it's stressed).

When the third tone is followed by a character which would normally have the third tone, but it turned into a neutral tone at some point, it depends on the phrase. A good rule of thumb is: if the neutral tone can also correctly be pronounced as the third tone, then it follows the normal rules of sandhi (哪里). If the neutral tone can only be a neutral tone (e.g. duplication 姐姐 or some suffixes 椅子), then there is no sandhi.

It's one of my favourite examples when people start claiming that Mandarin tones are easy, there's only 4 of them, blah blah

[Orpheus]

Another magnificent post, thanks renzhe!